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How can nothing create something?

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I know a lot of religious people like to bring up this question; somehow mistakenly believing this is some kind of trap for a rational mind that follows science more than faith.

The interesting part is it is just as much a "trap" for religion as it is for science. The same logic of something could not come from nothing apply as much to god as they do to the singularity from which the big bang emerged.

If nothing cannot create something, then where did god come from? How did he create the universe? Not only would he have to have been "created from nothing" but so would everything else... as he had nothing to create them from other than NOTHING.

If god is capable of just always having been here, then so is the singularity. It could have just as easily "always have been here; no time in which it was not present." If god can just magically manifest himself from nothing one day, then so can the singularity.

The bottom line is ANY rationality you use to explain why god can bypass the "something cannot come from nothing" rule can just as easily be applied to the singularity. Of course, this also works in reverse. *cont*

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The interesting part, for me, though, is the fact that science realizes there is a paradox in place, and actively seeks to find the answer. It WANTS to figure out how "something came from nothing", and constantly seeks out the answer to that question.

Religion, more often than not, refuses to question and try to answer it. They, in fact, actively discourage questioning it.

All that means is the gap between what a rational mind knows as fact and what a religious mind knows as fact will only continue to grow. We question and we learn. You listen, and assume you already know.
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The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

Nothing exists prior to itself.

Therefore nothing is the efficient cause of itself.

If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results.

Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

The series of efficient causes cannot extend ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

Aquinas
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Fight..... I see you point you don't know how Nothing Works. Don't fill bad i don't ether.
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Fight... I'm sure you saw my comment on another thread but I want you to look at it again.

God created all things.

An explosion created all things.

I don't have the faith to believe it was an explosion.
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@wiserrt: All that says which you posted, in its simplest form, is that:

1. Something could not exist before it existed.
2. Something could not create itself.
3. Something had to have another something come before it in order to exist.
4. However, this creates the afore-mentioned paradox, so... this would have us make an exception and say "forget rule 1 and 2, and say something DID have to either create itself or exist before it existed. Something had to start it all".

Naturally, that logic is beyond flawed, even when posted in a flowery, pseudo-philosophical way. Let us assume, though, just for the sake of argument, that it was accepted as truth. How, exactly, does ANY of that not apply to a singularity being the "first efficient cause"?

If anything, that above faulty logic proves my point. Anything that explains how god could exist also explains how a singularity could exist.
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@wesmills: I fail to see what you do and do not have faith in has ANY bearing on what the truth is. You could have as much "faith" in it all beginning with a ball of cheese named tiddlywinks, and the reality of the universe would not be effected at all.

You seem to have a faulty delusion that whatever you have "faith" in makes it fact. I refer you back to our discussion on a "strong/weak" mind. There are plenty of asylums filled with people who have 100% faith in their own delusions; none of which affect the reality of the universe at all.

If what you have faith in is wrong, then, yes, your "faith" is wrong. Cringe from that all you wish, but it is still the truth.
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Fight... Your like a one man boxing match that ends with a KO. Go back over that 123 you made my point better than I could. Do you mind if I use that next time I debate an atheist I will pay you royalties.

Fight vs Fight. My $ on Fight to win in the first round.
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And the worst part is you fail to see my point, completely. Do the above 3 points cause issues with the concept of a singularity? Yes. Does it cause EXACTLY the same issues with the concept of a god? RESOUNDINGLY, yes. Something you cannot dodge, no matter how much you attempt to.

The worst part is your inability to even admit such. Here is one of the faults of "faith". Even when your hand is held, and the logic is laid out before you in excruciating detail, you have no ability to admit to it. You see it... no thinking mind could not... you just refuse to admit to it.
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... or, perhaps I am wrong, and you ARE unable to follow such simple logic. Such would actually explain a great deal, in fact.
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Fight ... Your an atheist ok, no god, the ebb and flow of nature created All things. So you fallow nature why are you so blind to the fact that nature is your God.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

Albert Einstein
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Fight ... I'm sure glad you shorten your comments.


"Some people talk in their sleep. Others talk while other people sleep." Albert Camus

Lol
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Fight keep fighting Fight you will win.
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Firstly, I am not an atheist. Secondly, even if I were a Naturalist (which is what you describe), believing it was the laws of the universe that created everything that is NOT the same as believing in an intelligent entity in control of everything, passing judgment, with a grand plan in place. Additionally, even if there IS such an entity, it still does NOT prove it is ANYTHING like the god of most religions.

Thirdly, please, PLEASE tell me you do not honestly believe "every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe". Such would show a true delusion upon your part.
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It just hit me you are,...god!!! The wisdom is flowing off your fingertips like dew off a dried cow turd.
Will you mess up your hair and send me a black and white pic of yourself so I can hang it next to that moron Albert Einstein
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And it just hit me... you are a smug troll not in the least bit interested in reality, truth, or anything other than attempting to gloat about your shallow ideas. You will never know just how much the intelligent world laughs at you (be they atheist, agnostic, naturalists, humanists, religious or otherwise)... but perhaps that is for the best. You are completely incapable of entertaining any foreign ideas or concepts. More the pity for you.

As to your completely pallid attempt to cast Albert Einstein as a religious believer with the above quote... I seriously doubt you are even aware of its origins or the background revolving around it.

Rather than simply give you that knowledge, I challenge you to find it all on your own. Find the worlds that prefaced it, as well as those that came after. Find the question it was meant to answer. I will even give you a bit to go on... when Einstein wrote it, it was not even in English but in very nuanced and poetic German. Your "quote" above is one of MANY translations into English, and not even a good one.

As to Einstein as a religious man... allow me to dissuade you of that notion with an actual quote of his; this time written in English.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Einstein was neither religious or Atheist. Agnostic is the closest to what he believed.
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Fight..... If Your own light is in your own eyes it's your own fault you can't see.
You sound like you've tried to learn a few things in your life, outstanding but if I could let me add a little bit to your heap of knowlage. I know I'm not a smart as other people, but!!

Fight... Everybody follows the laws of nature if, you don't you better tie yourself down your floating.

The deference between theism (the belief in God) and atheism is.
I a believer sees that there is someone that made nature so in that, he (my God) controls nature, I follow nature like everyone else. But i serve the God that controls nature so I don't serve nature.

Atheist sees that nature created nature in that it controls itself nothing above nature and they fallow it. If something you follow and it controls you it's your god.

Now your saying nothing controls me I'm my own god , if there is one , I'm in control, ok next time you need some oxygen make some or if you fall down don't hit the next hard serfice that's under you.
Everybody serves Someing.


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Fight ..... Prove to me Abraham Lincoln lived.
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Wow. Wesmills I'm surprised you STILL have something to say after all that. How ignorant.
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Frobie,,,, I see you got back from the doc.. Did he give you meds.... for your foot in mouth disease. Next time you need to tell him to double your dose.

Froboy....so when did you start scoring debates?

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Why are you talking about? My foot in my mouth?
And I don't usually it's just some Christians such as yourself are in denial that there is no other proof then God and I try to explain to them that there is but they just keep saying "nope you're wrong and God is right." It gets a little irritating.
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You would have to ask an atheist, I have no idea how they came up with that conclusion. I pray for them. God bless

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Wiserrt ... The comments will be snide and scoffing. This thread will be like ranch, full of bull with no meat.
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It amazes me how they have so much to say, but the words be so empty
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Wisarr ..... Can you take Fight a new keyboard I think he whore his out.
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Just down right amazing ain't it? And I don't understand how some Christians constantly think that all atheists believe they know everything
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NWAR... Please interpret???
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I don't think I'm going to waste my time. I've been reading several of your questions and post. You're not trying to understand anything. All you are trying to do is feel superior by trying to make little jabs here and there about atheists. You probably don't know any atheists personally yet you seem to think we all think the same based on who knows what. So no thank you
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Near..... Your right!! I bought a new brand of Off repealing spray Christian spray it on and atheist won't bite.
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No nearguy, that is not what is amazing. What is amazing is how we now use science as a way to deny our Lords existence. But to me, our understanding of a blessing does take away from the fact we are blessed. Do I know how we got here, no. But that is how we learn about are blessings is by debating and studying. I do know there are flaws and faith based beliefs in science as well. Don't believe me look up the term dark matter. Also if evolution happens and at a micro level how can we explain the eye. It is very complex. Seems like it would have taken billions of years for "chance" to get it right. Thinking logically how our body burns calories that is a lot of wasted calories for something that didn't work properly or not at all (same argument for why we use more than just 10% of our brain). Other ways science has been flawed. The world is flat (instead of round), vomiting due too much bad bile in your body (instead of viruses), or drilling holes in your head due to evil spirits (instead of having a head ache). So no, I never claimed atheists believe know everything. As a matter fact , why would I make that claim. What I was saying was, people (what ever liable you what to put on them). Take our understanding of a blessing and try to use that as proof that God does not exist. But if you are looking for proof I always offer up aquinas AS A STARTING POINT. See, were God is concerned, people reach a conclusion then stop researching after they find something that backs their side I challenge you to not stop there but look up counter arguments for counter arguments and keep going. But here you go

http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays_ArgumentAnalysis.htm

Also look up the watchmakers analogy (if you dare to challenge yourself)

God bless
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FightTheSprial said it all.

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shabazz2

LOOK at The White Man .
He took the Land of the, American Indian and made, these United States.
Not to say the White Man is nothing,
He is something according to , ( John
8:43 ).

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shabazz2
Wesmills:
I did injoy the question .
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shabazz2
The Man behind the Question , is A
Part in parcel of my answer !
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How funny that mankind assumes that all questions can be answered through our extremely limited accumulated knowledge base. And how predictable was it for man to create a diety to explain the "unexplainable". We are simply animals with enough intellect to question our own existence and fate. But unfortunately, we are not smart enough to answer those questions.

So god was created, and millions of people have died and will continue dying for what ends up being a way to alleviate our fear of the unknown. I refuse to live in a world of basic thought, where fear dictates reality and man is reduced to a sheep.

Educate yourself instead, here's a possible answer to your question that is based on fact, not superstition. I bet you don't even watch it, house of cards and all that.

http://howcanpeoplebesostupid.com/we-are-all-made-of-star-stuff-342

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Well go bark somewhere. Gen 1:1 in the beginning God ..... Everything....
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wow, that answer blew me away, so well thought of, so insightful. I think you converted me, no, no, SAVED me from myself. Thank you so much wesmill, casting aside all reason and believing in some thousand year old stories has made me a complete man. By the way, I just got my hands on some amazing swamp land in Florida. If you can be sold on fairy tales, this will be a slam dunk. woof woof.
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