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Sweeterthantea:
1 year ago
via Android
Jesus is not GOD he never said he and John 14:6 states what u just said
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MungBean123:
1 year ago
Personally, I try not to charge anyone or what they believe in. I think we should all respect other people's religions and try not to judge as no one is perfect and no one knows for sure who is right and who isn't.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Thats a good way to be. I am just merely trying to clarify things about Jehovah's Witnesses so people may be better informed.
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Sweeterthantea:
1 year ago
via Android
odd you are doing a good job thank you
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vmedina43:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Do you guys believe that Jesus is God, and that He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life ?
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Thanks for asking, we believe that Jesus Christ is a seperate entity from God. Yes we believe that he is God's son and our Savior, but we believe that Jehovah God is the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit the energy that Jehovah God uses to make his will a reality.
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tra1215:
1 year ago
Jehovah Witness's are the ones who gave me that last little push toward atheism. I went through a long period when I was really questioning my faith and the bible. Two women would come to my door every other week. I was too polite to slam the door in their face, so I listened. They would always drop off Awake and Watchtower magazines. I actually took the time to read them, just because I try not to criticize anything if I know nothing about it. The articles in these mags were crap! There were articles about the dangers of video games and heavy metal music, which were just stupid, IMO. But the one that really got to me was an article about husbands and wives. At first, I thought it was good. It talked about how a husband should listen to his wife. Then it got creepy. It was all about how a husband should placate his wife, make her THINK he takes her seriously, then put his foot down because he's the man and what he says goes! What a crock.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Well although im glad you commented, to me your views seem a tad bit immature.. For example, yes in these magazines, we try to inform people on the dangers found in this world. And although to you, it may seem rediculous, video games can be dangerous to impresional minds of kids. What good can be done to a 5 year old child playing games like Call of Duty, or grand theft auto? the violence and immoral acts found in those games is real, and many times it affects the kids. Many become more violent and more prone to doing things he played in the video games. Second, many, not all heavy metal, but alot of it, makes referenct to
Satan, and dark angels and degradig sexual topics that really convey ideas that people shouldnt listen to, according to the bible. Third, what do you mean "placate"? Because if your saying that the watchtower gave sexual tips, idk what type of porn magazine you were reading but it wasnt a watchtower. Plus, based on that an your next point i know you didnt read the magazine well and with an open mind, because what you just said doesnt describe what we teach at all. We dont believe in pretending to listen to our wives, and then squashing them because they are female.. That goes against what the bible teaches. We believe that we should respect eachother as husband and wife, and her views should be seriously taken into account. But the dinal decision does go to the male as he is head of the family, that is the way God designed matrimony.
Satan, and dark angels and degradig sexual topics that really convey ideas that people shouldnt listen to, according to the bible. Third, what do you mean "placate"? Because if your saying that the watchtower gave sexual tips, idk what type of porn magazine you were reading but it wasnt a watchtower. Plus, based on that an your next point i know you didnt read the magazine well and with an open mind, because what you just said doesnt describe what we teach at all. We dont believe in pretending to listen to our wives, and then squashing them because they are female.. That goes against what the bible teaches. We believe that we should respect eachother as husband and wife, and her views should be seriously taken into account. But the dinal decision does go to the male as he is head of the family, that is the way God designed matrimony.
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tra1215:
1 year ago
Sweetie, you should put Merriam-Webster on your favorites list, lol. Placate means to soothe or mollify; appease. I should have mentioned that the people interviewed in the video game/heavy metal articles were grown adults. In fact, I don't remember it mentioning kids at all. I also should have mentioned that I spoke to the women who came to my door about these articles. They told me that a household has to have a leader. My response was, "NO it doesn't! It has to have a PARTNERSHIP." Decisions have to be made together or deferred according to expertise. For example, my husband makes decisions regarding our vehicles. He chooses which ones to buy and where to get them fixed, and I don't say a word because he knows about such things. On the other hand *I* make decisions regarding our financial well being. *I* decide which investments to make and which loans we will take because *I* know about such things (or so my college degree tells me). In any even we talk to each other. Your magazine says that a man should listen to his wife, then do whatever he wants regardless of what she says. I know full well what the bible says about women. I also know what it says about slaves. What I'm trying to say is that Jehovah Witness's take the bible WAY to literally. If you believe it is the word of "god", then fine. But try not to forget it was written by men thousands of years ago. We've come a long way since then.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ehh.. I know what placate means.. But you said it got "creepy".. Soo would my definition of "placate" as in to please a woman be that out of place? I just tried to make sense of the context in which you used the word. No need to get smart. And ok, i mean i dont know exactly which watchtower you are referring to as there are many, but video games and that kind of music can also have negative effects on adults, why should it solely apply to children. Adults can be affected aswell, maybe not as drastically but still. Second, well if you know that is the word of God, and you disagree with it, then you are disagreeing with the word of God, and that has nothing to do with witnesses. The word of God is what it has aleays been and aleays will be regardless on whether the Witnesses existed or not.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
And what the bible says about slaves is an entirely different subject..
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tra1215:
1 year ago
Why do associate the word "creepy" with something sexual? That never crossed my mind. How do you think video games and music affect adults, besides making them happy? If people are going to be violent, it's because they have issues to begin with. No video game or cd will make a person commit a violent act. You talked about disagreeing with the word of "god". There are PLENTY of things in the bible that people disregard. Even Jahovah Witness people. You said slavery was a different subject, but it's not. The bible condones slavery, our society does not. See, we disagree with the bible. But you want to say it's ok to pick and choose which parts to agree with. That is the problem I have with certain (note I said certain) christian groups. They want to be right more than they care about what actually is right.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Um, even if video games were didnt affect an adult at all. Jehovah hates violence.. Soo how would he feel if you were partaking in a game that made light of violence and people dying, and portrayed it as something for entertainment? No we do not pick and choose, the slavery talked about in the bible is VERY much different than the slavery that occured in america with africans. And please enlighten me in the things Jehovah's witnesses do that go against biblical principals.. Im not saying we are perfect, because we arent, but we try are very best to please God, and do what is right.
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tra1215:
1 year ago
We, as a society partake in TONS of types of entertainment that portrays violence. Our movies, our tv shows, books, news coverage of war. You'd have to be a hermit to get away from it, and very few people can honestly say they're not entertained. I've heard your slavery argument a million times. It's a fallacy. You'll say that masters in biblical times treated their slaves better than in colonial times. I find that hard to believe considering that the bible gives instruction on how to beat your slave. You'll say that people wanted to be slaves back then because life was so brutal that slavery meant a roof and meals. Life may have been hard, but I can't fathom that anyone would want to lose their freedom. They did it because there was no other choice, not because they wanted it. Slavery is one person OWNING another person. The bible talks about putting slaves in your will to be passed to your kids after you die. Like any other possession. It was not right in colonial times, it was not right in biblical times. Just because bronze age men did it and wrote about it, does not make it ok. As for what Witness's (and the rest of us) do that strays from the bible.......just read Leviticus. Are you wearing two different materials right now? Quick, go change! The bible says that's an abomination. See what I mean?
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Sweeterthantea:
1 year ago
via Android
wow ms tra1215 im on the outside reading both ur comments ma'am u seem to be filled with a lot of anger and hate, over a couple of articles that u personally don't agree with.. i had read a lot of articles and books i it has never cross my mind to hate the writers... wow.. just a opinion
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Yes, there is violence and immorality everywhere, and it is impossible to evem turn on ones television and not see thosr things.. But that is why we must decide for ourselves what is too much, through what we know about God, and our conscience.. I mean im not going to lie, i have seen many movies that contain "violence".. But my conscious is ok with it, because i have a limit where i think the violence has gotten to be too much. As Jehovah's witnesses we do not force and standard upon anyone, nor any limits besides what is obviously outside of God's law such as fornication, fighting, killing, stealing ect.. But no, nowhere in yhe bible does it talk about God favoring one tace over another or supporting the type of slavery we commonly imagine when we hear the word, for that would go against his own principals. And i would like to see the text where the bible teaches how to beat ones slaves, because i am not familiar with that one. Also, the slaves of israeli times were only slaves until they paid off debts, and they were not beaten, there was no reason for them to be beaten because they were voluntarily working, not forced.
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tra1215:
1 year ago
You assume that everyone has the same tolerance level for violence that you have. You're right to say that we all must decide for ourselves. Which is why video games are ok as long as you can handle them. Some people can handle more than others, which is why vid games are so popular. The articles I read made it sound like they should be outlawed because of some sort of christian standard. That is why I had a problem with the articles. You may not FORCE such views upon the rest of us, but JW members are very vocal about how they feel. They knock on your door just to tell you how they feel. You wanted to know what things about JW I disagree with. So I'm telling you. To be clear, I never said that the bible talks about favoring one race. As I said, slavery is one person OWNING another. It's the same in the bible as it was throughout history. As for the text you requested, I can only think of a couple off the top of my head, and I'm not willing to dig for more. One is Exodus 21:20-21. These verses outline how if you beat your slave and he dies right away, you must be punished. BUT if the slave miserably clings to life for a couple days and then dies, you're in the clear. (Wouldn't want to end the torture too soon, what fun would that be?) Another is Luke 12:47-48. This one says that if a slave does wrong when he knows better, he will be severely beaten, but if he didn't know better....he will still be beaten.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Well exactly, so we agree at least in regards to at least this point. We all have different tolerances for violence and immorality, and thay is why we as Witnesses do not force our views upon one another. Well at least we try, of course it doesnt always work because we are human and we make mistakes. But that is the ultimate goal of what we try to do. Of course there is a point where one's conscience is no longer taken into account, because some things are not subject to speculation. Such as God's hatred for fornication, the worship and making of idols, murders and liars.. Ect. Those such things we do not hold to our consiousness because they are specifically spoken of in te bible as something God hates. Now, our liturature does not convey the idea of forcing others to a certain standard. We DO makr clear what the bible deems as right and wrong, but theb it is up to the person to decide. The reason we preach is to educate on the bible, NOT to give personal opinions. So if that is what you have encountered wherever you live, i am truly sorry because that is not our goal at all, and possibly the people that knocked on your soor werent mature in that sense. But we do preach because Jesus commanded us to in the bible, and because he did it himself, and he is our model, the person we try to follow. Now on the whole slavery subject, homestly i am not as educated in that as maybe i should be, and i should read up on it, so maybe i'll gey back to you on that on a seperate time. But yea i am aware that i asked for opinions, and i accept your point of views, i welcome them actually. So thanks.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Jehovah is not saying that he approves of slavery, no, He intends to end it- all forms of it- whether humans like it or not. But that involves intervening in the personal lives of all humans; even the ones who've already made it known: "there's nothing wrong with that!" Or: "No one has the right to interfere in my affairs!" My point is, bringing an end to certain things involves everyone's personal free will (which Jehovah has stated He respects). So Jehovah leaves instruction for those who presently ARE under the burden of slavery; so that they will act in a way that gives them the best opportunity to endure with the least possible difficulty. And bring honor, not only to Jehovah, but to themselves.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Concerning PARTNERSHIP? Concerning Jehovah's view on marriage-and male/female relationship? Jehovah wants 2 people to enjoy a rich relationship, with Jehovah Himself as the moderator- so to speak. Outside that arrangement, it is every man and woman for himself (or herself). It honors a man to know that his wife appreciates him and supports him; that when he succeeds, she succeeds. That is natural, men are built that way. Women obviously want respect and dignity also; to be a partner, not a junior partner. Jehovah understands this, and encourages partners to work together to achieve this. This is the way Jehovah's arrangement works, not one member in command of another. 1 Cor.11:3 makes it clear what Jehovah has legally established as His divine arrangement for human couples. But it is not a form of slavery; nor an arrangement that involves domination. When manifested correctly, it is an arrangement the assigns quiet honor to both parties. And respects the needs of both man and woman.
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Kimber1911:
1 year ago
via Android
Why don't they say stand when the colors are brought in at ball games and other events?
Also, I heard they don't believe in blood transfusions, is that correct? Why?
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
The reason we do not pledge alleigance to any flag, or sing any mational anthem, is because we are completely neutral towards government. We believe tht the only government capable of changing the world is Jehovah God's divine government. So in that case, we do not consider ourselves apart of this world or system of things, but instead citizens of God's kingdom. But that doesnt mean that we dont pay taxes, or obey the law, quite the contrary, we do our best to abide by the laws of the countries of which we pertain, because it is also a commandment of Jesus to "give to cesar the things of cesar" as in give government what it asks of us.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
And yes, we do not accept blood transfusions, because according to the bible, it is wrong to re-use blood once it has left the body, as blood is something sacred to Jehovah. But we are DEFINITELY NOT pro death lol. We do out best to survive without the use of blood transfusions.. And contrary to popular belief, there are many very successful alternatives to blood transfusions, which are actually less risky since one runs a much lower risk of contracting diseases through blood, or having one's body reject the blood given.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Disagree: the insistence upon the pronunciation of Jehovah, a mix between two words. The idea that Jesus was a lesser deity in contrast to the tabernacle. The disbelief in dinosaurs. Confused: The above is most all that I know. Feel free to clarify the above or state some simple truths regarding what JW believe that I am not aware of.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Well im not sure what you mean when you say a mix of two words. The name Jehovah, is just a different way of spelling/pronouncing Yaweh, which comes from the tetragrammaton YHWH.. We do not reject the name Yaweh, but since Jehovah is a more popularly known form of the name, we use it. But really the way people pronounce it or spell it really isnt important, since the old hebrew language has been lost to the ages, nobody really knows how to properly pronounce the name. What Jehovah really cares about is the people know that he has a name, but the accuracybon how to pronounce it in the long run isnt the most important thing.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Second, if you could elaborate on your second point, i would appreciate it, because i do not know what you mean..
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Ah. Thanks for the info. A lot seem to hate me if I use YHWH or Yahweh or even Jahveh.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Now the whole crazy dinosaur thing, lol just forget about that. Thats a reaally weird rumor going around, tht i really dont uderstand, or know how it started. We absolutelty do believe in dinosaurs, lol theres no reason to argue against that. This one honestly always makes me laugh cuz its so weird.. I grew up i new york and ive been to all the museums, and i know dinos exist.. I havent met one witness that says that they dont.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Na Javeh and Yaweh are both accepted by us.. Yea there should be no problem with that.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Dino's are a result of some state's (NH?) recent bill attempting to remove any controversial word from standardized tests. They said JW don't believe in Dino's because it requires an older earth that conflicts with Gen 1-11.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Point 2: JW believe Jesus is a lesser deity than Jehovah (from my understanding). Mainline Christianity believes Jesus was God incarnate. As a Pentateuch scholar, I prefer to think of this as Jesus being the tabernacle (based on John 1), the physical vessel in which YHWH dwelled amongst us. I guess I more-so lean towards Coptic Orthodoxy than mainline Christianity in this matter, but I don't like to think of there being more than one deity in the Hebrew-based faith. YHWH is our God, YHWH alone; and Jesus was YHWH dwelling amongst us, not an vessel to be worshipped, but indeed a vessel carrying the same essence as YHWH Himself.
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Sweeterthantea:
1 year ago
via Android
odd great answers... jk...may i suggest u read and study your Bible ... its good to see u asking questions.... keep asking and learning
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Dustee: I study the Bible about 30 hours a week as a full-time post-graduate student. I'm also a Teaching Assistant. Thanks for the advice though. Everyone should study their Bible a little more, including myself.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ok, addressing your 2nd point now that you have elaborated a bit more.. We as Witnesses do believe that Jesus is extremely important, but yes, we believe he is second to God. He is the son, therefore lesser, as any son is lesser than his father, in the sense that the father deserves more respect, because he is the reason that the son exists. Jesus even said that he was lesser than his father: John 17:3 "[ Jesus prayed to his father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the ONLY true God ["who alone art truly God,"NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." Notice that Jesus did not refer to himself, but to his father as the only true God.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Yeah. I say something similar to my wife. You don't worship the tabernacle; you worship the One in the tabernacle. But unless one gets in the mindset of a first century Jew, one can't understand that this midpoint between JW's and mainline Protestants' view was what Jesus in effect believed regarding himself.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Well i mean, God never commanded us to worship the tabernacle, that I am aware of.. We abide by the laws that Christ left for us before he died.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Yeah. That's my point. Most Christians would disagree with me.
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Oddplatano, Jesus was worshipped and accepted worship as compared with apostles. Jesus showed us the Glory of Jehovah which Glory he says in Isa. that Jehovah does not give to another. Jesus forgave sin which only Jehovah can do. Jesus created ALL things in heaven and on earth and Jehovah did that. So I don't know about this tabernacle thing but these things...I know.
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yirmeyahu:
1 year ago
via iPhone
Read NT Wright's works on the Historical Jesus. He can say it without sounding heretical. I can't.
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strawberrygirl:
1 year ago
Where does it teach in the Bible that Jesus is Michael the archangel? Why isn't Jesus called Michael right now since he is in heaven?
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The Bible never says Christ was Michael. Christ was Son of God on earth and One with God, part of God. Michael was a separate being that we call angels, beings created by God just as we were. Christ and Michael are totally separate beings. Why would we call Christ by the name of an underling?
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ok did you come to undermine what im tryin to do here? Im trying to educate according to what people are confused about with what Witnesses believe.. Please stop doing whatever you are doing
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Strawberry, i will answer this tomorrow, thanks for asking :)
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strawberrygirl:
1 year ago
The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ok strawberry: Yes we believe that Michael and Jesus are the same person. The different names are used to decribe two different jobs.. For example, Michael in the bible is drscribed as the archangel, leader of the heavenly army, that is one job of Jesus, while he had another job on earth, therefore he was given a different name.. Just as he is also called Immanuel, as you mentioned earlier, and The Word aswell.. And there are many other names. The name Michael appears only 5 times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as "one of te chief princes," "the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel's] people", and as "the archangel." (Dan. 10:13,12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah's sovereighnty and destroying God's enemies.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the ressurrection to begin is described as "the archangel's call," and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to thay of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. Intersingly, if you notice, the expression archangel is never found in the plural form The Scriptures, indicating that there is only one.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the ressurrection to begin is described as "the archangel's call," and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to thay of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. Intersingly, if you notice, the expression archangel is never found in the plural form The Scriptures, indicating that there is only one.
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misterg:
1 year ago
OddP...sorry to squeeze into this discussion and I'll make this quick, well as quick as I can. Regarding this matter of Michael being Jesus, take a more careful look at the ENTIRE reference you included, Jude 9. You only extract the word "archangel" out of that verse and yes, Michael is Archangel. But there is more there and don't overlook it. There is a dispute between Michael and the devil over the body of Moses, and Jude tells us that Michael dared not rebuke or bring accusation against the devil but said, "the Lord rebuke you." Yet in Matt 4: and the temptation of Jesus, there the Lord Jesus does not hesitate to rebuke Satan and exert his authority over Satan. It seems clear from this that Michael is not acting with the same authority that Jesus did over Satan. As for 1 Thess 4:13-17 (entire passage please), it is about the rapture of the Church. It seems clear that what is accompanying the Lord Jesus descending from heaven, is a shout, and a voice, and the trumpet of God. You are assuming that the shout and voice are of Jesus (is he also blowing the trumpet?). When a Judge walks in the room, there is a shout "Hear Ye, Hear Ye..." It is not the Judge's voice. It is the court clerk. So that is an assumption. The passage in Daniel is a clear reference to Michael and it says so. So there are no direct references to this idea that Jesus is Michael, and you are left with the 1 Tess 4 passage which is hardly a passage around which you would want to build such a critical doctrine.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Yes, Jesus does correct Satan with authority, but only through God's authority. He says before he corrects Satan.. "It is written".. As in it is God's wor thatvis written.. So he is still showing that he "dared not rebuke him".. Because the way he did it was still giving glory to who deserved it, which was Jehovah.
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Jesus said I and my father are ONE. Being in religion, has nothing to do with pushn wht u believe dwn someones throat. jus live ur life accordingly. and it has nothng to do with knockn on ppls doors tryna get them to believe wat u believe. Jesus never knockd on doors. he spoke truth and if the ppl followed him tht was great, but if they didnt, he didn force them
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ok did you come to undermine what im tryin to do here? Im trying to educate according to what people are confused about with what Witnesses believe.. Please stop doing whatever you are doing.. Especially since what you said in this post is extremely incorrect.
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Did you know that the idea of the trinity came from the Egyptians. They worshiped triune gods, they even had statues representing them. Even The Greeks who were also pagans believed in the idea of the trinity as well. Yes Plato also believed in the idea of hell as well. Do research of the trinity doctrine of how it was originated, and you will be surprised in how the Roman Catholics mixed pagan and Christian worship. Jesus alway said that the father was greater then he is. We all love Jesus and what he did for us and we will never forget it. Us as Jehovah's witnesses follow Jesus Christ foot steps and examples. We are following the example of the early Christians who went preaching and declaring the good news about Gods kingdom until the end comes. The apostle Paul even said to reject the ideas of Plato's false teachings. He said this for good reason because many were bing mislead by those teachings. And today billions of people are mislead. So thats why we are preaching to save lives. Thats why we can say that we are following Jesus command to go and make disciples throughout the world.
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Sweeterthantea:
1 year ago
via Android
pnut38...Jesus sent out 70 city to city door to door people to people. Jesus went from city to village to town to homes to seashore..he gave a command to tell ppl about the good news.. and before him was his cousin John the Baptist ...preaching in the wilderness repent and be forgiven of your sins...door to door village to town to city fields to Jordan River... John Peter Paul need more... witnessses for the good news
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dash21:
1 year ago
pnut38, While it is important that others respect your religious viewpoint, I would like to point out the difference between forms of religion that are about 'us'- 'I'- ;'me'- and the kind of faith that is based in deep consideration of Jesus' personal view of matters; and the kind of faith that does not dismiss Jesus' loving dedication to completing the will of his Heavenly Father. As individuals it is obvious that we will benefit eternally, if we love and cooperate with God. But should the focus of our religious attention be upon ourselves? Or upon dong God's will. Jesus' attention was firmly fixed on doing his Heavenly Father's will. (John17:25-26) If the early Christians had not followed in Jesus' footsteps, would we even benefit from the record of their activity, today? Actually, Jesus did preach round and about, from place to place. (Luke 8:1) And he he commanded his disciples to do the same. (Mt.28:19-20) And at Acts 5:42, 20:20, the disciples joyfully carried out their assignment, preaching from "house to house". Most of those that shut the door on them, were religious.
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misterg:
1 year ago
This is an odd ASK.COM question since you are asking to answer ,but,hey, I'll bite. Here are some questions: Maybe less mainstream oddities. 1) How come only JWs insert JEHOVAH into your NT when YHWH is not in the NT manuscripts 2) Why do JWs disfellowship people for smoking cigarettes when the Bible does not speak to this directly. (p.s. I hate cigarettes). 3) Who were the JWs prior to Charles Russell in the late 1800's. Do you believe Luther, Calvin and other trinitarian, hell believing etc, were JWs? 4) Shouldn't the prophecies of the end in 1925 and 1975 and other times have come to pass if the Faithful Slave was Jehovah's prophet? 5) Are JWs permitted to read books published by other than the WT society? Why don't they? 6) If a non JW dies, is resurrected and then lives faithfully through 1000 years in the new system, and then gains everlasting life thru faithfulness, why did Jesus come and suffer and die? 7) Is not celebrating birthdays a matter of conscience or is it an edict of the organization which could result in disfellowshipping? 8)Why don't JWs obey Jesus' command to of his followers to take the bread and wine in remembrance of him? ...you asked.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Yea i know i asked and this is precisely why. I love these questions, and i would love to answer. But just giving you a heads up, i asked ALOT lol.. So this may take a while. But i will answer. I would also appreciate if nobody else interferes in this question trying to put their opinion in, not because i dont want to hear opinions, but it will sidetrack the conversation. Unless the person is a Jehovah's Witness aswell, and would like to expand on the information given. Thank you.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Thanks OddP...but would you mind if I made a special request. May I have Senor Platano's answer and not the organization's answer. I would like to know what a real JW believes about these things if they don't look up the answer. Is that OK? So for example, tell me if you actually believe that a person who uses tobacco, or has a job selling tobacco products, do you personally believe they should be cut off by Jehovah for all eternity for that act, and why? And tell me where you think the Jehovah's Witnesses were during the middle ages, and what did they believe about things like the deity of Chrsit,the Triity, the Cross, the 144,000, etc, . Similar for the other questions. Thanks.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Well Senor Platano..Just checking to see if you responded. i do realize your difficulty answering these questions I raised, so I hereby relieve you of your promise to answer them. I took your question as your way to familiarize people with JWs, and my questions go toward that goal as well. I wanted to bring some questions that are beyond the standard ones you get. Well, If you decide to take on just one of my questions, the one I think you might find most interesting to personally think through, is just where were Jehovah's Witnesses from the first century until the 19th century and just what did they believe. There seems to be only three possible answers. 1) there were none and it is an end time revelation of Jehovah (see Jude 3). 2) it could be that there were small pockets of people meeting in homes and practicing as you do today in your Kingdom Halls (not likely since most of the doctrines and practices come from the 1900's and Judge Rutherford), or 3, They were among the Church going people who believed many of the doctrines you now reject. People like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Augustine, etc. who wrote about what they believed. So if you want to narrow down my list to just one question, try that one.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Sorry misterg.. I AM definitely going to answer all of these. I just havent had the time.. I will answer all of them. Ive been busy the last few days but i will answer.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Honestly i havent really been on this site until now, just bear with me lol.
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Hi Mesterg I can answer some of your questions. #2 well when Jehovah's witnesses first start studying the bible.We start to examine how Jehovah would feel if we worked in a smoke shop. The chemicals found in cigarets are poisonous and are designed to kill people. So with that being said we as Gods people we would not want to sell or make products that are designed to kill people. We would also not work for a company that make weapons for war as well.
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#3 Charles was a man that helped us to know the truth found in the scriptures. Jehovah god used this man to start off the bible students in the late 1800's we did not get the name of Jehovah's wetnesses until the 1930's. But your question was if there were any Jehovah's witnesses in the before Russell. Well there are scriptures that say that the true worship would stop for a period of time, and the true worship would show up in the last days of this wicked system of things. So with that being said, we are the only ones who are having no part of the world. We are also true followers of Christ and do what the bible says.
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#4 well us as imperfect people tend to make mistakes. We admit when we have made those mistakes. The bible says that know one knows the day or the hour, not men, nor the Son, nor the angels, but God knows. The light of Jehovah will always become brighter and brighter in our organization, and we will always make the needed changes to please God well. Unlike Christendom who still refuses to change regarding the infusing of pagan and Christian worship together. The haven't change the idea of the trinity where it is not found in the bible. The Egyptions would worship triad gods, the Catholics saw this and had the idea to merge paganizim into there worship so as to attract more people. Misterg look up on ask.com what pagans had trinity gods. And you will see. False region will also continue to celebrate holidays that are deeply rooted in old pagan customs that displease God. Plato believed in the idea of hell and the trinity, the bible clearly says to not listen to Plato's false teachings.
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Sorry I also forgot to mention people who were bible students of Gods word, before Charles. They spoke out about the Catholics doctrines and they were often killed about what they found in the bible. We do respect there efforts to expose the false teachings and God respected there efforts as well.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Thanks JT...I'll wait until I hear from Senor Platano. He understands what I am really asking. For example, I know cigarettes are not good for you. I have never smoked (well, I actually had one cigarette and nearly choked to death), and do not want to be around smoking. But the question is not about the harmfulness of cigarettes but about the authority of the organization to make such a determination as to cut someone off eternally from Jehovah based on something like that which is not mentioned in scripture. There are many things that are not good for you. Saturated fat. Refined sugar. Taking part in risky sport and activity. Don't you think the the organization crossed the line with this edict. And what is more, every one of Jehovah's Witnesses agrees to this controversial idea, without a single JW questioning such a thing. So my question is how do YOU PERSONALLY feel about a person being cut off eternally for it? In a related matter, is there anything you can identify that you disagree with the organization about?
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misterg:
1 year ago
JT, I'm again waiting for Oddplatano on the question of the history of JW, but what is this scripture you are referring to that supports this "GAP THEORY" that ALL true worship stopped and starting again with Russell? I found this quote from an older Watchtower of 15 July 1960 (p. 435) : "Down through the years the slavelike congregation has been feeding its true members faithfully and discreetly. From Pentecost A.D. 33, up to this present hour this has been lovingly and carefully performed. Yes, and these 'domestics' have been fed on progressive, spiritual food that keeps them abreast of the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." This seems to say something different than your GAP idea. Did they change their mind on this? And then are you saying that from let's say 300 or 400AD for example all the way to the late 1800s there are absolutely no true worshippers of Jehovah God. People like Wycliffe who was instrumental in translating the Bible into English, was just a heretic unbeliever?? Martin Luther who stood up to the Catholic doctrines that had so deviated from the Bible's teaching of Grace alone, by Faith alone, through Christ alone and who translated the Bible into the German language. Was he wasting his time as just an unbeliever?? Which is it? And if there was a Faithful and Discreet Slave in those intermediate years, what did they believe?
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misterg:
1 year ago
On #4, where is the scripture that says not to listen to Plato's false teachings?
The point of my question is not that mistakes are made, but that mistakes were made by the prophet of Jehovah. Deut 18:22 says, "When a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" also see Deut 13:1-5.
The point of my question is not that mistakes are made, but that mistakes were made by the prophet of Jehovah. Deut 18:22 says, "When a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" also see Deut 13:1-5.
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#6 well from what I know is that if someone leaves Jehovah, and is announced at the kingdom hall that he or she is no longer one of Jehovah's witnesses, and Jesus comes tomorrow and execution upon people. The bible says that only Jesus can read the hearts we can't read the hearts. We can't judge when it come to that. Now if that person repents and turns around from doing bad then Jesus might show mercy because he can read the hearts. The apostle Paul is the one that set the example for us in keeping the congregation clean the bible says in not even eating with such a person. It's only when they are willing to stop any wrong doing and turn around. Then Paul says to welcome them back with open arms. Now regarding your question if someone that is DF should die before Jesus comes. He or she will have a chance to come back when Jesus resurrects all those in the memorial tombs. Then Jesus will give a chance to everyone who has died. That's what we believe. Now your other question in what I think in the case cigerrets. Well I personally think that's it's wrong to sell rat poison to people and that what cigerrets have inside of them. Then I think would Jesus sell cigerrets to people to make a living. Then I would come to the conclusion that a true follower of Christ would not sell that poison to people. Now thinking outside of the box if I was a person that bought and smoked cigerrets from someone that work at a smoke shop and claimed to be a christian I would think what a hypocrite.
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Plato was born in 428 BC, and Paul new about his teachings and said in Colossians 2:8. Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of this world and not according to Christ. You see how Paul new about Plato being a Greek philosopher and warn us to stay away from his teachings. Paul went to the finest schools and saw so many people Mislead by the teaching of the trinity, hell, the immortal soul. Ezekiel 18:4. Says Look All the souls to me they belong. As the soul of the son to me they belong. The soul that is sinning it itself will die.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Thanks JT for the reply and clarifications. I understand about Plato. The way you said, that the Bible says not to follow Plato's teachings it sounded like a scripture naming Plato directly but I understand you now. Let me clarify my question #6. Jesus came as a human, gave up heaven and died for our sin (Phil 2, 1 Cor 15:1-5) The Bible calls on us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Our salvation is based on our Faith in Jesus Christ. The scenario #6 provides a way for someone to not believe, have no faith, reject Christ, and be resurrected. Then in the new system, by their own good works of obedience get into the new system. It means that there is a work-around salvation through Christ alone. The Bible provides no such work around. There is salvation in no other name but Jesus. He is Jehovah's way of salvation. So I don't get it. Fundamentally, JT, the Bible teaches us that by works of the flesh, no one is saved. Ephesians 2:8,9 is clear that we are not saved by works. Romans 4 referring to Abraham is also clear about that. Titus 3:4-7 is also clear about that. So when I hear a doctrine like #6, it is counter to that Biblical teaching. Thanks for sharing your personal view about cigarette smoking and df.
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John 7:16. Jesus, in turn, answered them and said. What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. You see Jesus is teaching his fathers ideas. John 14:28. You heard that I said to you, I am going away and coming Back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the father, because the Father is greater then I am. Even Jesus viewed his fathers superior authority. Mattew 28:18. That verse says: All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Jesus was given authority by his Father. Luke 3:21,22 says. Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven. You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you. Jesus was praying to his Father. If Jesus was God who said those things from heaven? Philippians 2:9, Jesus describes what God did after Jesus death and resurrection. God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name. According to this verse, Jehovah exalted Jesus to a superior authority position. I see that you have a love for Jesus but you tend to ignore Jehovah. I hope these scriptures will help you to understand what Jehovah wants from us, and to avoid the idea of the trinity.
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dash21:
1 year ago
You put that very well, Jt, I enjoyed reading it. I hope the scriptures you noted are considered by interested ones. I know we don't 'follow' humans, but I do try and follow your comments when I can; so I have you and Odd on my connections list. (Yours was the first post I noticed, by the way.) I've got a bug I picked up at convention, so I've got to run. Good work!
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misterg:
1 year ago
JT, thanks for your response. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is not "it". He is He . He is described using personal pronouns and qualities that belong to a person. You don't see this because you are using the NWT Bible and because you read only the WT books. You miss that within the TRI-UNITY of God there is an authority structure. So the Father is greater than the Son and they are both God. For me, this explains how Jehovah can be Love when in eternity past, there was ONLY JEHOVAH. There is relationship within the Godhead And there is authority, and love and fellowship all of which are passed on to us. In fact the submission of the Son to the Father within the Godhead is also perfect picture of marriage where there is "one flesh" and authority. And remember how Jesus emptied himself as described in Phil. 2 so it is natural for all these reasons for the Father to be described as greater, and for Jesus to be described as submitting to the will of the Father. But, I know you cannot see this. That's understandable. But think about the problems you have with multiple Gods. There is God, and a god. There is Almighty God, and the Mighty God. But we know there is but One God. Think about how Jesus was bowed down to and worshiped and did not reject it. Think about how Jesus showed us the Glory of God which Glory Isa. says Jehovah would not give to another. Think about how Jesus forgave sin, and identified himself as the I AM multiple times. Think about how the Jews understood his claims and called it Blasphemy. Look at Revelation and How Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, who was and is and is to come. The one who was dead and then alive. Look at Acts 20:28 how God shed his blood for the Church. Look at how Jehovah calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1. Col 1 where Jesus made EVERYTHING. It's there, but you miss it. See my quest 5.
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misterg:
1 year ago
I'm still not clear on who were JW during the middle ages and where did you get the idea that there would be a gap in worship, to then be restarted in the 1800's. Didn't the organization claim that the Faithful Slave has been feeding the sheep for 1900 to 2000 years continuously? Also, I still wonder why you don't take the emblems of bread and wine when Jesus commanded his followers to do it?
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Well i see that i have missed ALOT lol.. Would you still like me to state my views?
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dash21:
1 year ago
misterg, Your comment was well put together and easy to read; thank you. However, Jesus called himself the "Son of God"; approached God in prayer, privately; told God that he loved him, said he was "sent" by God, is referred to as a "mediator" BETWEEN God and men. "No man has seen God at any time," the Bible says. Moses was instructed to serve "as God" to Pharaoh, in Jehovah;s place. Jesus did no less, but was always the "Son of God", never 'God the Son'; not in the Bible. The Bible refers to the angels as "sons of God", rather than "sons of men". Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn of creation". There is nothing 'mysterious' about this; nothing that invokes various conceptions of a single idea. Also, the NWT does make reference to Jehovah's "holy spirit" in personal ways. "God is a spirit", and Jehovah's "spirit" is "holy". "holy spirit" is also referred to as Jehovah's "hand", His "power". When an individual speaks of a boat by calling the vessel "her", one may assume that a woman is the subject of reference. But when the individual adds the word "it"- or employs context that clearly refers to a vessel's nature or capabilities, it goes without saying that we know that a boat is the subject of reference, not a person. And when a man and woman are referred to as being "one", we do not assume that they are literally 'one' in being; that is absurd. Why, then, are the rules of reference and context just tossed out the window for the sake of conceptual convenience, when God's nature is concerned? And why is the record of history concerning this concept completely dismissed?- when it agrees with the Bible text. God said: "I am Jehovah. I have not changed." And : "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah"! (This, at a time when triune gods were still very popular.) An arbitrary statement of human concept is an elaboration, and not the same things as an express Bible teaching. But I think I have a good idea why you believe what you do on the matter; and I respect your willingness to examine the Bible. D-21
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dash21:
1 year ago
As for Jesus being the Alpha and Omega: The Hebrew text is in agreement that Rev.1:8 states: "I am the Alpha and Omega (A-Z) says Jehovah God...the Almighty"- a term which is applied to Jesus nowhere in the Bible. Remember that Jesus is the "sent" one, the executioner of God's wrath when that time is to come. The 2 of them work together in executing Jehovah's judgments, that has always been understood. They are mentioned together, even as a judge and executioner are; a king and his general. This doesn't change the rule of language and context. Both Jesus and Jehovah have a throne- Jehovah has ALWAYS sat upon His throne, His Universal Throne. Jesus was given a throne, and a kingdom. (The "Great King" of Persia sat upon his own throne, and ruled over a king- sometimes a set of kings- that he set in place under him. This is not an unheard-of arrangement.) Compare 2 Chron.18:18: "I certainly see Jehovah (Hebrew) sitting upon his throne and all the army of the heavens standing at his right and left." This rule also applies at Rev.21:6, where Jesus speaks for Jehovah, saying: "I am the Alpha and Omega", repeating Jehovah's words; since Jesus directly imparted the Book of Revelation and its contents to John. again; simple context. 1 Cor.15:28 helps remind us that: "...when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him".- "God". Jesus makes the same declaration at Rev.22:13. And notice Isaiah 48:12, where Jehovah says to Israel: ",,,I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last." Jesus was and is, acting as Jehovah's "mediator" and "executioner", until, as 1 Corinthians brings out- his job is complete; and he returns all things to his Father Jehovah, so that "God may be all things to everyone" once again. Remember that Jehovah and Jesus were working together as Father and "son" since before (what we might call): 'The beginning of time'. Working TOGETHER, the Bible says.
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dash21:
1 year ago
CONTINUED: As to Hebrews, God does not call His "Son" God. Verse 8 says that the "throne" of God is "forever" the throne that Jesus is loyal to. Notice in verse 9 that it points out that Jesus "loved righteousness". And that is why God "anointed" Jesus to serve Him in such an important capacity as Jehovah had in store for him. Jehovah IS righteousness. Jesus "loved" it. Satan rebelled against God, learned to hate righteousness. Jesus proved himself loyal and true to God. Not every translation wants to reflect Jesus' love and attributes toward Jehovah. The Bible says that all things were made 'through' Jesus, and for his benefit. It doesn't say Jesus is God. That is another elaboration; like 'God the Son'; not in the Bible; anywhere! But the subject- that is, verse 8- is worth discussing. By the way, the word 'Church' is not quite...well...actually in the original scriptures. Technically, the Catholic Church was the 1st "church". The early Christian ekklesia- or Congregation was an assembly with the express purpose of calling individuals OUT of the world, so that they could walk in the light of God's approaching "new" world, by means of God's arrangement through the ransom sacrifice of His "Son:, Christ Jesus. (Abraham displayed his willingness to sacrifice HIS own son in a like manner; for a divine purpose that benefited others.) The express purpose of the Catholic Church was to "Christianize" the world; quite a different purpose. The term "church" became fashionable, and found its way into the Bible, replacing "congregation"- or "ekklesia". Just a point of historical interest. Maybe.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Dash...interesting. Thanks. I need to take some time to review what you wrote. But you clearly have some good thoughts. You overlooked a couple of things. First, the problem you create by having two gods. Second, the idea of persons and structure within the triunity of God allows for differences in authority and relationship between the persons. As for "firstborn" it is a term that deserves your study. It refers here as elsewhere to pre-eminence in position. Here is a thought for you about the "Son": I am human by my nature. I have a son. My son is not me but my son is human. Jehovah is God. Jesus is the Son of God. The nature of Jesus is God. Dash...read Revelation 22:9 to 21, and answer the question "who is coming quickly?"
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misterg:
1 year ago
OddPlatano....Ah, mi amigo and a man of his word. You're back. Well, I did not ask these questions to necessarily get into deep doctrinal disputes though I should have known better...lol. But I was looking for a real Witness view of some organizational things. Witnesses take pride in the organization of things but from the outside it looks more like group-think. So I wonder if there are any things which you or any witness would say, "the organization says this but I believe that" or "I am not comfortable with that idea" I gave a few examples. Disfellowshipping (as in eternal cutting off) for cigarette smoking or selling tobacco. Celebrating a birthday. Even blood transfusion though I read your answer on that and you don't need to repeat it. Would there be something you would admit to that says you personally think these things through. And if the organization changes a position such as has happened, and everyone goes along with it, do any say, "I still think the old way" or others say, "I always believed that anyway"? And related to this, you folks (in many and most cases) use only the material from the WT and so you don't get views from the outside. Some of what I write is probably foreign to JW. And how do you REALLY FEEL when you don't take the emblems, even though you want to be a follower of Jesus. And I would like to hear your thoughts on who were JW during the middle ages etc. JT seems to have a gap theory but I think the organization's position was that for 1900 to 2000 yrs the faithful slave has fed the sheep. So who were the JWs then. I would like to hear from OddP on these questions. Thanks.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Dash. Pls follow this. Rev1:7,8 Vs. 7, the one coming is Jesus. Every eye sees whom they pierced. That has to be Jesus. The next verse is a quote. "I am Alpha and Omega, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." I suppose even though it is the next verse, and it describes one to come just as verse 7 does, you have to say that is Jehovah. OK so far, Jesus is the one coming. Jehovah is the Almighty and is to come. Verse 17 says,"...I am the First and the Last," Next verse, 18 says "I am He who lives and was dead, and behold I am alive forever more." That has to be Jesus. So Jesus is the First and the Last. ( First and Last seems to go with Alpha and Omega and if we did not know that Jesus was not the Almighty, we might reach that conclusion but let's say that can't be just for argument's sake). So Jesus is First and Last. Rev 21:6 Quotation again. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts." Sounds similar to what Jesus said to the woman at the well, but skip that for now. Alpha and Omega is the Beginning and the End. Rev 22 starting in verse 12. A quotation "And behold, I am coming quickly and my reward is with me to give to every one according to his words. I am the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." OK so Alpha and Omega is the Beginning and the End and he is the FIrst and the Last. Makes sense. These all have the same idea of beginning and ending BUT we said before that Jesus was the First and the Last. So it might be confusing except that the speaker identifies himself in verse 16. "I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you..." Verse 20, a quotation, "Surely I am coming quickly". Then the verse ends with Even so, come Lord Jesus!. So the one coming quickly is Jesus. In Rev 21:12,13 the one coming quickly is Alpha and Omega. Conclusion...It is JESUS.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Dash, you asked about I AM. It is from John 8:58. The term to study is Ego Eimi, Greek for I AM. It is the name that Jehovah used to Moses when he said "I AM sent you." It has the idea of eternally pre-existing an self-existant. In John 8:58, Jesus was not just establishing a time line to say he was around before Abraham. Then he would have said, "Before Abraham was, I was" and there is adequate language to express that idea. (I always think to myself, when there is bad grammar in the Bible, since it is the word of God, there must be something to it. "Before Abraham was, I am" is the wrong tense! )But Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM (Ego Eimi)." The Jews understood what we might just read through and miss, and they picked up stones to throw at him for Blashphemy because they knew what that meant when he used the same term EGO EIMI. Jesus also used this when he called himself I AM the gate, the resurrection, the good shepherd, the light of the world etc. There are a few more. AN interesting one is John 18:4-6 when they came to arrest Jesus in the garden of Gethsamane. He asked them "Who are you seeking?" They said, "Jesus of Nazareth". He answered " I AM" then there is a curious thing that happens. It says,"Now when he said to them, 'I AM' they drew back and fell to the ground." Hope that answers your question about I AM.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Misterg, My views are obviously different than yours, but- really!- that is an interesting response. (I haven't read the second part yet; I will.) Maybe I can explain myself better: I think the point of what I- and some others- are saying, is that there is only one God- Jehovah, our Heavenly Father. Jesus was a heavenly "son of God"; the very first (one of them had to be.); so obviously he had a special relationship with Jehovah; being alone with him for a considerable period. This doesn't lower Jesus, Jesus was 'elevated to an even higher position' than he already had, the Bible says. He became the only "son of God" chosen to fulfill the ransom sacrifice on our behalf, and Jehovah's champion to the utmost degree. Jesus is only lowered if one sets him up as God, for he would have to be reduced to accept his many glories; which extend higher than any other living being in existence; towering towards Jehovah's own glory, but not reaching equality with it. Jesus and Jehovah are both spirits, they share that. Jesus became a human for a limited period, but sacrificed his rights as a human, to pay for what Adam lost. As to the term 'god'- or 'gods'- it is humans that have set up other gods; there is only one God, Jehovah. When Jesus is made reference to in the plural sense, the context is obvious: Not 'plural' trinity, but 'plural' nobility. What I mean is that Jesus is made reference to in the Bible alongside other human gods; but explained as being a true god; higher than any others; a real and powerful being, not a human notion or invention. This is an important distinction. Even Moses served "as God" to the Egyptians, but we all recognize that Moses is not God; nor part of a duality or trinity. (Ex.7:1 and 4:16) And the bible refers to God's "holy spirit" as His own, personal abundance of "power"; compare the many ways it is referred to; what holy spirit did and accomplished; the full context cannot be successfully argued against. Jehovah's spirit is powerful! And 'holy"! CONTINUED:
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dash21:
1 year ago
CONTINUED: I agree with you that Jesus and Jehovah share qualities that make them quite similar in many ways; Jesus even made it clear that He shares Jehovah's values, and follows Jehovah's principles and ways. But honestly, should we also adjust the context of a Bible text to fit an idea that is various in interpretation, and is not expressly stated in the Bible?- even if the interpretation seems elegant or eloquent? I do encourage everyone to research history concerning the origin of such concepts; how they entered Christian thinking; who developed and propagated their modern form; how far back in time the concept goes; what the record states about what the early Christians believed and taught; see if the Bible confirms this, and keep in mind basic Bible principles as they read and absorb context. One basic Bible principle is that Jehovah uses "mediators"- 'go-betweens'- when dealing with humans who are still riddled with sin. And these 'go-betweens' (Jesus is obviously the foremost) work closely in harmony with Divine standards and purpose. I will look at Rev.22:9-21, and get back to you. I will also read your second comment. I understand that once a concept is established in the mind, that it ripples through every page of the Bible we then examine. And it effects us emotionally; and when we assemble with others of a like mind, we re-enforce that concept; perhaps even mistake emotionalism for God's "holy spirit" or approval. I do not exclude myself from this statement. In fact, if I were a bit smarter, I wouldn't be so long-winded. Sorry. Recognizing who God is, and how His arrangement for approaching Him works- how it is set up- is important; on this, we may agree. I will look at Rev.21 and explain my thinking on it, when I can get back to the computer. Thank you for a well-thought-out reply. And including scripture.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Dash, this may be the shortest post I ever made. I like that we both have a passion for the things of God and on that we agree. I trust that as Jeremiah 29:13 says, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." I trust that to be true for both of us. Read the Rev post and get back to me. G
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Ok, i understand what you are getting at. Well, regarding what I believe in.. As a Jehovah's Witness, which i am by choice, agree with everything we do as Jehovah's witnesses. When you ask my views on certain subjects, regarding my views on our practices, theres absolutely nothing I disagree with. And its not because we are "brainwashed" as many people like to say, which i actually take as an insult.. It is because I understand that all the decisions made, in out organization are directed by God. I do not know how well you are familiar with the way our organization works, so just in case, i will enlighten you. I attend meetings weekly, about twice a week, at a place we call a Kingdom Hall. Here we go to study the bible, and share our faith with one another. As in any place, there are thosr in charge, those who guide. The ones who guide us in our congregations, are called elders. These men are usually people that have been Witnesses for a long time, and are very experienced. These people are there to help, and counsel those who are in need of spiritual guidance, aswell as teach. They are also in charge of finances, upkeep of the kingdom hall, organization of our preaching ect. (I know this is dragging on but I have a point im trying to get to lol) Now, these elders, are named by through the Governing Body. This body, also referred to as the faithful and discreet slave, is made up of a group of exceptional brothers, that have tons of experience, and are also anointed, as in the have been chosen by God, to go to heaven, as they are apart of the 144,000 that are chosen. Now these men, all get their decitions on what to do through God. Not that they have conversations with him directly no, but they all are lead by the holy spirit, and all their decitions are made through prayer and from heavy analysis of the bible. So when a new understanding of the bible, or new "rule" is shared with us, we know thay it is God's will, and his decition. For He is the one who leads the governing body. And i mean some could say, "well you guys arent following God, just a bunch of old guys." But, the thing is that our organization works so smoothly, and without major mistakes, that we are sure that it is God leading us. He is a God of organization. Plus, these men arent some kind of evil braimwashing group because they have no reason to be. First of all, they have no financial gain. Second, they take out of their day, and their time with family to be able to complete the responsibilities that they have. Third, what would they gain from leading a non- for profit religious group to preach and spread the good news? Nothing.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
So as to what i believe, no i dont ever question what information comes to us, because i know it comes from God. Im not saying that i accept anything just because, there have been things that i have been confused from, but the giverning body does explain the choices it makes, and they do back it up biblically. And in the end, if im still not fully understanding, i just have to trust and have faith that they are doing the right thing, because again they are being led by holy spirit. So in the case of cigarettes, i agree with the expulsion of people that continue to smoke them after they know that it is wrong. Its not like we automatically disfellowship people thay smoke, but once they are explained to that it is wrong, and the persist.. Then yes. The bible speaks of treating your body as if it were a temple, that means taking care of it and not harming it. Cigarettes cause cancer and poison the body, so the use of them is wrong. The same thing with drinking in excess, you are losing control of your mental faculties when you drink too much, which also goes against biblical teachings. Birthdays, to tell you the truth, im not even sure if we disfellowship people for that.. I mean i am not aware of a time it has happened. But yes i believe they are also anti-biblical because of their origens (if you'd like me to clarify let me know.)
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
As to any 18th century "Witnesses".. We do have some that we consider witnesses yes, but to give an accurate report on that i will have to refresh my memory, i will get bsck to you.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
And i think i misspelled *decisions many times lol.. I apologize.
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dash21:
1 year ago
They don't even receive a salary, disguised as part of a non-profit "necessity" to permit them to function. Oddplatano is correct. Those working- overseeing- and living- at the headquarters and facilities once received about $40.00 a month to help with toiletries and monthly needs; which has risen some to keep up with inflation.- and they work long and hard! But while religious leaders in Christendom commonly receive significant salaries- even huge sums and riches- those working on the Governing Body (just a name) do not! There is no place for 'wolves' to prowl among Jehovah's Witnesses. It just wouldn't be profitable.
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dash21:
1 year ago
I have read Rev.22, in fact, that was what I was referring to when I commented on the "Alpha and Omega". As I pointed out, Jehovah is the "Alpha and Omega", and Jesus speaks on behalf of Jehovah. It may take some time to confirm this personally, but there are clear examples of this kind of declaration made on behalf of Jehovah, elsewhere in the Bible. It's not as if there are none. Jesus warned- in verse 18- that anyone who "makes an addition" to his words, would be adversely judged. The Bible expressly says that Jesus is the "Son of God", not figuratively, but literally; not in mere concept. Also note that Jesus is "bearing witness" to the "things" of "God" (verse 18-20). And consider this, please: If I am wrong (as I often am), then I have failed to see a greater truth because of my lack of insight. But if those who hold to "the Trinity" are incorrect, then they are elevating the "Son of God" to the very level and position of Jehovah Himself! And as someone told me once: "There is (even) a greater name than Jehovah- it is the name of Jesus." So to this person, Jehovah even becomes a lesser one than His "Son"; each individual now adjusting the concept according to his or her own take. Which wrong is the more dangerous wrong? I ask this serious question simply to bring out the contrast between solid Bible teaching that leaves no room for disagreement and individual interpretation; and concepts that do. But I hope you don't mistake my words for disrespect. That wasn't the intention.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Just something to add to my last comment: This may be delicate, so please know that I do not wish to cause offense. But: Rev.21 also made note of something else. Verse 15 mentions "...those who practice spiritism"; and the context clearly expresses God's view of them. Now when I began examining the Trinity, I was able to trace its modern conception back to the Greek philosophers; who later heavily influenced Christendom's thinking. The concept was clearly adopted some 3 or 4 centuries after Jesus walked the earth, the evidence of its adoption is widely known. And the apostles and the early Christians did not accept the concept. But the concept stretches back much deeper in to history than there. It was developed and re-formulated over many more centuries, by nations that set themselves in express opposition to God. A carnival of Gods was commonly headed by a triune godhead, and was closely linked to "mother/child" worship; which have been linked the the death and perpetuation of significant humans, which- again, respectfully- is spiritism. No, it doesn't stretch back to an imitation of God; please scour history for an honest-hearted search. If- historically- a concept is not held or promoted by the early Christians, the apostles, Jesus or the faithful men of old. (Abraham, for example.), should we desire to embrace it? New light is not the same as human adoption. Emperor Constantine played a very major part in adopting these concepts, yet he refused to be baptized until he lay on is death bed. Constantine was a worshiper of the pagan "SUN god"- not the "Son of God", by the way. Yet at HIS declaration, Jesus became 'God the Son'. It was another imperial Roman declaration made by another Roman emperor, that adopted the "holy spirit" into Constantine's 'duality', and defined God's "holy spirit" as a 'person'- a part of the new Catholic "trinity". Should we dismiss these facts? Why? What does it gain us not to worship God the way our early Christian brothers and sisters did?
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dash21:
1 year ago
MISTERG, I know you were talking to Oddplatano, but I wanted to agree with you on how things may 'look' from outside the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. 'Group-think'- I understand what you mean. But these individuals are not simply going to a church. Everything they do is related to the Kingdom preaching work. And they are already serious students of the Bible before they are baptized; where they are commissioned to preach the Good News. Thus they are in agreement much more thoroughly than most church-goers. And their meetings are geared around their service to Jehovah God. By the way, there really isn't much a person can get disfellowshipped for; serious immorality, mainly- accompanied by a lack of willingness to correct one's course; and he can still return. We cannot come to your door and give a witness about the good news of the Kingdom while we're engaged in serious wrongdoing. How would you view us then? And how could we bring honor to Jehovah's name? Some matters we have simply agreed upon, as a body of people; not as a matter of divine expectation. In the U.S., for example, we decided to remain clean-shaven, since we approach people at their homes. Not because we have to- in some other countries there are different customs. For example: One can wear a beard, it's not a sin. If one desires to reach out for privileges that involve serving as an example to the congregation, one might not see them come. But that is the individual's choice. Remember, Jehovah's Witnesses are well aware of their responsibilities, they agreed to them. Regarding 'emblems': Keep in mind that most Jehovah's Witnesses WERE partaking of the emblems, for many years. Now, as we approach the conclusion of this system of things, far more Jehovah's Witness are responding to the Good News about the Great Crowd of survivors, and do not view themselves as "priests" and "kings"; but as earthly inheritors of Christs's Kingdom. They are happy to be a part of the memorial of Christs's death.
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dash21:
1 year ago
REV 1:7-8: I understand what you're saying. Thank you. But if you wish to understand what I mean- this a very limited medium- You have to consider what I said earlier, and compare it with other locations of the Bible. I cant just instantly make you understand it or believe it, but I can tell you simply that Jesus is representing Jehovah expressly; and in other locations also, where the context is more clear, Jesus expressly speaks for God. So did humans, in the Bible. It is very simple to understand, it is not a complex mystery that is open to interpretation. You either accept it or you don't. But! It often takes considerable more time and energy to unlearn something, than to learn something; because of bias; as you know. Investigate how Jesus and faithful humans served as Jehovah's spokesmen throughout the Bible. The prophets made an example of speaking for God, and doing so suddenly- in the middle of a verse- to establish Jehovah's divine authority over a matter. Also, I suggest you examine (thoroughly) the origin of the Trinity, and when it was adopted into the churches of Christendom. And WHO adopted it. And who never taught it. Without doing that, you may not grasp- or possibly 'accept' (because you are obviously very intelligent)- what I mean.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Oh and i forgot to mention the partaking of emblems, but yea exactly what dash said.. I am aware that i am not going to heaven. I am not one of the 144,000 chosen. I am well aware though, thay i have hope of living for eternity in paradise, just as Jehovah promises in the bible.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Thanks for the information on "I AM". I do know that the causative form of the Hebrew verb 'ha'wah' ' influences the translation; changes its form into an action. That is probably why some scholars acknowledge that "I Cause To Become"- or "He Causes to Become"- is the correct rendering of "I AM". But I did not know what you meant at first, sorry. And it IS an interesting subject.
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Lol its ok any way.. Its just a username so i dont mind. Thanks for asking though
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misterg:
1 year ago
To all who participated, I want to commend you on your civility and sincerity. Thank you for taking the time to share with me. ( Dash, I do hope you give my answer on the Alpha and Omega and the passages in Revelation more attention than you did so far. I took quite some time to put that together and you seem to have glossed over it. Please...please look it over again. I know you do not want to accept that Jesus is being referred to as Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, the First and the Last but follow the sequence of scriptures in that answer and let the scripture speak to you. Not what you expect the answer to be. It is OK if it is confusing at first because of what you expect it to say, but just see what it actually says about, to whom these titles refer. It will be eye-opening to you if you let it.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Well, Odd, thank you for sharing your personal views. I asked and you answered. But I think you can see why it could seem like group-think. Your expression is one of believing no matter what. If something major changed tomorrow, I expect you all to accept it and no problem. You know, the Faithful Slave predicted the end in 1975 and when it did not come, Amazingly, it made little difference and it is because there is that loyalty to the organization as you express. Let me sum up my questions for you by sharing with you that I have family who are JW and lived through the 1975 thing. I can tell you first hand that they and their other JW friends were sincerely expecting Armageddon based on what was said in the organization. The Kingdom Ministry (???_Organization pamphlet JW use) commended JW who were selling their homes and leaving their jobs as they expected the end to come. We received a telephone call from a frantic family member who wanted us to be JW days before the end was to come. And a few years ago, I met a new JW on the street, who told me this all didn't happen. She told me that 1975 was just a lie to slander the organization. And what I described about JW not reading any non- Watchtower literature is also real experience. Same for only using NWT. That is real too. So when you put this together, I think you can see that from your perspective it is total trust and loyalty to God's organization, from another view it looks like something else. I don't know how long you folks have been JW but I hope you find this historical experience interesting. It won't change your mind, I know. Thanks again for sharing. Dash, if you want to comment on the Alpha and Omega one more time after re-reading, I'll check back. G
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Oddplatano:
1 year ago
Hmm yea i understand. The thing is that while we all believe that the Governing Body is directed by God, we also know that we as humans are still imperfect, and since the Governing Body doesnt converse with Jehovah God directly, there is a possibility that we may decipher rhe scriptures incorrectly, which may have resulted in what happened in 1975. Although honeslty i am not aware of that incident, i do know that in 1914, we did make a mistake and we believed that there would be a rapture in that year. Obviously we were very incorrect, and we do not stand by that claim anymore. Now that we understand the scriptures better, we do not pretend to predict any dates, since Jehovah God is the only one who knows. So again since we as an orgamization keep in mind our own imperfection, we do not just leave our religion because some mistakes were made.
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dash21:
1 year ago
misterg, I received your kind and considerate words with much agreement and appreciation. I have considered these matters for many adult years, although I may not sound like it. However, I do not wish to become overconfident and unreasonable. So I will continue to consider what you have said, I will not dismiss it. I feel I must say that the matters I talked about, involve their own time of devoted consideration. And I do not think that it can always be grasped without a full heads-up comparison (on the subject of Jesus representing Jehovah in literal expression) of Bible texts and books; and a background of what they say, in relation to our subject. It would appear...'glossed over', yes. But please don't misunderstand me! When I'm tired, it is very easy to 'gloss-over' a matter. I will consider your words and information. I am half-child and half-aging man, I think. And I really don't think very highly of my own abilities. Although I may sound like I do, too many times. I wish that we humans could break the communication barrier of ideas; that seems difficult. But I have confidence- perhaps we must wait for what we call 'The New System"- that we will someday. We are still a human family. Thank you again for your last comment. That was a very encouraging one! D-21
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dash21:
1 year ago
Just a quick note about 1975: Long ago I talked to those who'd been through that period; some of them are very close to me. Over an extended period of dealing with the issue, and examining the matter- also for my own personal benefit- I can report that it is hardly as disturbing as many of the religious fiascos that go on in mainstream relegion; since it involved a certain number of Jehovah's Witnesses leaping to the wrong conclusion and ending their association with the Congregation of Jehovah's witnesses. No con-artists, political or private meddling, commercialism, or anything the like, was involved. ALSO: I have examined all the magazine articles and books that created the confusion. I found 1 in particular that crossed the lines of preparation, and approached actual prediction. But these articles also pointed out that the brothers did not know what was going to happen in 1975. And the articles were actually correct when they stated that 1975 is the calculated 6000 year date since Adam. (If we knew when Eve was created, we might be able to deduce the approach of the war of Armageddon with increased accuracy; but we do not.) We have certainly passed- since 1975- into a new and dangerous era, different than the post-W.W.2 era that existed before it. And what is sometimes overlooked, is that Jehovah's Witnesses have been astoundingly accurate at determining important Bible dates; the dates Jehovah permits us to determine, of course. HOWEVER: The articles did state that the brothers did not know what was going to happen in 1975. And the context of those remarks did not reflect a phrase designed to serve as an 'out', so to speak. But were statements of genuine caution. As I said, one particular article was clearly penned by someone who was excited; anxious to see something happen. But even so, this was essentially a matter that concerned Jehovah's Witnesses. And it involved expectation, not corruption. .
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misterg:
1 year ago
Dash and friends, Thank you for your nice comments. Just to comment, it is not just that it did not come true, but the fact is that it was encouraged from within the organization and I know when you go back and read some writings, it may seem that there were cautionary comments but I can tell you from personal experience that the the hype from within was real I don't like cutting and pasting in my posts but I will break my rule. Here is the WT statement following the disappointment: It is from this website: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php. Here is the quote:"In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date." So wrong premises are from persons having to do with the publication of the information. For me, it would be, let me say, extremely difficult to believe that mistakes were made in the past because the governing faithful slave as you call them, are only human but then you hold that they have the absolute truth today. Couldn't it be that some teachings are not correct today because they are only human? But you will say they are Jehovah's channel, so in some ways you have it both ways.
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misterg:
1 year ago
It is also interesting to read about the governing slave prediction about Armageddon based on the scripture in Matt 24 "this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled." The generation according to the governing ones began in 1914. There were several adjustments over time based on what is a "generation" stretched the time. Then adjustment for how old a person was in 1914 when the generation began, which bought some more time, and then they finally I understand it was re-interpreted to mean something completely different, because the generation by any measure was long past. I'm sorry for how this all sounds when you read it. I know it sounds overly critical but since it is quite personal for me given that it involves my family, I am expressing it exactly as it is. So please accept my apology. I also want to say that I don't believe there is any deliberate action to deceive and it is impressive how people donate their time to your work and for such impressively little salary. So I never question the sincerity. Well, if you take away anything from all of these postings, I hope it is that we each need to personally examine God's Word and as it says in Jude 9 " earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints." Picture yourself on an island with only the Bible, and as you read and study only it, what would you believe about Sin, Salvation, Faith, Grace, Jesus, the Gospel, Heaven, Hell, Soul...and trust that Jehovah will let his Spirit be our teacher even it is promised. Nice getting to know you...Maybe we'll bump into each other again. G
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dash21:
1 year ago
Concerning 1975, I still don't see the issue. There are sites- and people- in abundance whose agenda is to ridicule and oppose Jehovah's Witnesses; whose sole aim is to preach the Good News of the Kingdom, and sanctify Jehovah's name.. Let's stick the facts, please: 1. The 1975 articles were correct when they pointed out that a period of 6000 years since Adam, was due to conclude in 1975. Non-Witnesses have also agreed with this. 2. Because of this, if we knew when Eve was created (I may have said 'died' earlier, sorry.), we'd have a strong clue to go on that would make it possible for us to pin down the beginning of the great tribulation. (Jehovah likely doesn't want us to know that.) 3. Each article pointed out that we do not know what will happen in 1975. They simply knew that 1975 was a landmark date. 4. 1 of the articles was penned by someone who certainly did display elevated expectations. 5. Many of Jehovah's Witnesses did forget the reminders of caution, and became overexcited. The articles should not have projected possibilities, hopes and expectations as strongly as they did.- especially one of them. 6. A serious social change was indeed taking place around the year 1975- the conclusion of 6000 years since Adam. 7. the significance of the year is being overshadowed by the perpetuation of the confusion surrounding the incident. 8. It was primarily an issue that concerned Jehovah's Witnesses. 9. It did NOT involve greed, corruption, immorality, political meddling or violence- many of the features that surround the fiascos that are seen in mainstream religion. So again...What's the problem? Please find something important to beef about.- like...something along the lines of mainstream greed and corruption? (It's quite a problem for Christendom.) You don't want me to make out a list of these mistakes...do you? Oh, and 10. Can we talk about something important? Like the "good news of the Kingdom"? What it means to sanctify Jehovah's name?
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dash21:
1 year ago
Also: The brothers realized that they had not been careful enough, and had created inaccurate expectations; had developed those expectations themselves. Again, so? Where is the perspective? Did it get lost with the greed and corruption? Is Christ's kingdom not coming anymore? By following Christs example, Jehovah's have done away with greed, corruption and violence. Jehovah's Witnesses have not slaughtered their fellow Christian on the carnal battlefield. Do not profit off of God's word. Are not riddled with corruption. But how wicked of some of them to hope that the end of the 6000 years period since Adam's creation, might bring a conclusion to the suffering and death this present world system has wrought! Can perspective be restored here? That is what I'm talking about. Perspective. The 1975 issue is a very poor attempt to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses. If opponents of their preaching work had something better, I'm quite sure they'd use it.
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dash21:
1 year ago
misterg, please do not mistake my serious responses as a retraction of my previous statements. I have appreciated your communications; which I recognize come from a different position than my own. As for the "discreet slave" being 'Jehovah's channel': No one is saying that God or Jesus is appearing to the brothers that are responsible for overseeing the preaching work. And the term is not a blanket term to justify anyone's right to have the final word on what is the truth. But we all choose who we intend to associate with, spiritually; who we better trust to reflect the teachings of Jesus. Without going into the subject here (the venue is limited), I can say that Matthew 7 (along with Galatians 5) deals with the question of who best represents God's authorized servants (if you will); Jesus' genuine disciples. These ones would certainly be the channel to search for; not the Pharisees; not "mainstream Christianity", not radical elements of Christianity. Do any of these truly resemble the early Christians at all? I suggest someone begin by selecting 1 quality that Jesus' genuine disciples manifested; and still manifest today. That is: 1 feature of Christian peace. Jesus' disciple put away the sword; renounced the carnal slaughter and maiming of their fellow man and fellow Christian. Begin there. Who have followed Christ's example, and made the adjustments required to put away the sword? Drop any who have not, off the list of candidates for being Christ's genuine disciples. Find out who remains. Are they followers of Christ? If they reject Christ- or that Jesus is the Christ- you can eliminate them from consideration, too: obviously. Jesus made it clear that his genuine disciples would still exist in our time. But he didn't say they would be mainstream. He said that they would manifest- actually display through their actions- who they were. So who remains left for consideration? And whose word deserves greater weight for consideration? That is the channel we need to locate. But 'channel' is just a word.
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dash21:
1 year ago
'governing slave'- that's a new one. Detailing the history of Jehovah's Witnesses; which is actually distinct from that of the Bible Students, takes a longer venue than I have at the moment. Any religious body- or group of bodies- could have become Jehovah's Witnesses; if they had displayed an active interest in preaching the "good news" of the kingdom in the post- "gentile times" era, and displayed a willingness to be refined as a people. The appearance of those who would serve as "witnesses" for Jehovah is prophetic; was going to happen; is directed by Christ Jesus. Who those "witnesses" would be, had less to do with a particular body, and more to do with who was willing to accept the responsibility and cooperate with the prophetic refinements necessary to make it possible to be qualified and authorized to carry out the work. Anyone can do it. IF! They are willing to comply with Christ's direction. 'Patchwork looking for errors' history' won't inform anyone much. The real thing is a lot more enlightening. Well, there's no room or time to elaborate on the matter now. But I can tell you that if you examine what happened during Noah's day; and recall that the Bible compares the days of Noah with the end of our present system of things, it becomes clear that the "generation" that you referred to, has still not passed away. The oldest human lifespan recorded- outside the Bible- may be that of a fenchman, who lived 122 years. Now we do not know the day or hour that the "end" will come. But we do know that 120 years passed between Jehovah's instruction to Noah to build the Ark, and the actual deluge that followed. Today- keeping in mind the same period of time that Jehovah permitted to pass in Noah's day, we come to about...2034. So I encourage scoffers to reconsider what little they might just know about 1914, and listen to those that are actually actively engaged in the preaching work; the ones who do not receive their reward through human salary. CONTINUED NEXT COMMENT
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dash21:
1 year ago
CONTINUED: By the way, no apology necessary, I didn't take offense. You didn't do anything. I'm just speaking strongly. As to adjustments. Do you remember the late 1970's and the early 1980's? When Christendom's most popular writers were making fortunes off their own personal writings; which were being promoted at church, offered as prizes; sometimes distributed? I do. I owned some of them. So please- honestly!- let's avoid the mental attitude that permits us to overlook the truth. Those popular books? They had people walking around with literal markings on their hand and forehead; the European Union as the new Roman Empire; a human person called the "Anti-Christ" enslaving us all for 3 years after the rapture; those left behind suffering in a monstrous Satanic sci-fi world. Their 'Anti-Christ' was alive at the time, by the way; about to take over the world. He's...getting a little old by now. Probably dealing with high blood-pressure. The churches loved it! Ate it up! I was there! And it was supposed to happen a long, long time ago!- even in the 80's, some of them said. Talk about adjustments! Hope they came out with regular revised editions- keep the money rolling in! Yes, talk about big money lining men's pockets! And the attention those men were lavished with! I watched them on TV; sickening! But cunning; I could've made my own fortune if I'd just walked over to my floppy-disk computer. Why didn't I think of it! (lol) So honestly- I'm calming down (lol)- serious adjustments made by serious Christians who's purposes are void of personal prophet and personal exaltation, are in a completely different column than their money-grabbing counterparts. Serious Christians make serious adjustments. Egyptology was once popular in Christendom. The Bible students came out of Christendom. So Egyptology influenced their early thinking. After they made adjustments, they were later ridiculed for once teaching Egyptology, by individuals in the very same organization that taught it to them.
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dash21:
1 year ago
Adjustments are a sign of serious thought, and necessary. And I appreciate your considerate words ab out sincerity. I believe that most people are sincere; whatever their point of view. Perhaps that is one basis for civility in communication. To clarify, by the way: 'Governing Body' is a term that refers to a small body of overseers that make decisions having to do with the preaching work, and the operations of the world-wide Congregation as a whole. The term sounds kind of...'governing'- so to speak- to those on the outside, I realize that. Did to me, before I was a Jehovah's Witness. But things don't actually run that way. An overseer of a congregation is now called a 'coordinator'.- which describes his job much better than the old term: 'presiding overseer'. Something along the lines of 'congregation coordinator' might be good to describe the job of a member of the G.B. Someone with a particular hope that has them carrying out the express activities that make them- discreetly- someone who might be viewed as one of those referred to as the "discreet slave", may not be serving on the G.B. So the terms are not uniform- don't have same meaning. ALSO: I agree with you that we must all personally study the Bible. Jehovah's Witness usually comply willingly with instruction or adjustment that comes down from what we often refer to as 'the discreet slave'. We respect the ones who are devoting their life's energies to coordinating the activities of the world-wide preaching work. And since we are commissioned to preach the good news, we cooperate as a unified body. You might describe the 'discreet slave'- in our minds- figuratively- as an older mentor whose been serving Jehovah faithfully, a good deal longer than we have. (And I'm not referring to opinion; I'm not saying: 'Oh, we trust everything they say to be right.'.; that's not encouraged.) Since we don't follow men- as so many people think we do- we view JESUS CHRIST our leader; and the Bible as our written authority. NEXT
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dash21:
1 year ago
CONTINUED: Since Jesus is a "mediator between God and men", we obviously view his heavenly father Jehovah as our creator, and "Almighty God". SO we worship the Father, Jehovah, THROUGH Christ Jesus and the God's arrangement, the ransom sacrifice. And Jehovah's holy spirit directs the Christian Congregation; Jesus was given authority to use God's holy spirit. Naturally the Bible is God's inspired word. Bible aids might only be called 'inspired' only in the sense that they are promoting the Messianic Kingdom. But Bible aids are not divinely inspired, which is why study of the Bible is more important than any Bible aid that imperfect humans can produce. The subjects you mentioned at the bottom of your remark, are each study subjects that take considerable time to cover individually But they are important subjects, I can see you feel the same way about that. As far as teachings of men is concerned: A teaching that can be traced back to its origins- how it became a part of religious thinking- when- where- by who- it was from men- not practiced by the early Christians- not taught by the apostles, Jesus or the faithful men of old (Abraham, for instance)- has pagan, spiritistic origins- has a literal historical record of manifesting un-Christ-like behavior (permitting violence, greed, corruption, ect...) in its followers; I would say that this- that- is a teaching from men. And the test for what is and what is not. The truths of the Bible are simple, logical, realisitic, and pure. Emotion and "powerful works" are not evidence of God's holy spirit. Well, that about sums it up- if you tuned back in one last time, you may know a little more about how we function. I cant say how long I'll be around, but I expect we'll cross paths briefly after this. We're different. But you're respectful and considerate. I appreciate that. Think I'll stop being an encyclopedia now. Whew...! (lol)
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misterg:
1 year ago
Well, Dash...we have something in common. We like to write. I looked back at saw and read your comments. I thought I detected that I had upset you with my comments and decided it best if I leave it were it was. But you put so much effort into this response, that it deserves comment. We believe differently. I think you said that somewhere. And it is really true. Even though we are pursuing a life to follow God. I thought, how can I capture that difference in just a few words. Here is the best I can do at it. You are pursuing God through a CHANNEL. You speak about it often. You have connected yourself to that CHANNEL and you seem to have a view that the channel flows like a current straight to Jehovah. Using my desert island analogy, you could not find Jehovah on the desert island because you would be disconnected from the CHANNEL. You seem to have a view that the CHANNEL is like the ARK that Noah built. If you are in it, you are saved. And that CHANNEL is this group, whichever name you want to call it. You hold them (governors) in high regard such that they speak for Jehovah and interpret what Jehovah wants to say to you, what scriptures mean, what work should be going on how to do the work, and if I recall reading a comment above somewhere, if you should have a beard or not. (cont'd)
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misterg:
1 year ago
Regarding this CHANNEL, you seem to make them HUMAN, but also have a divine connection. So you follow everything they say as if it is from Jehovah, but when they are wrong, you just attribute it to their being only human.
When you look outside the CHANNEL, you see only one mass of what you seem to call CHRISTENDOM. You lump them all together and any criticism of one (book selling, greed, etc) goes with all of them. My Church may have nothing to do with accusations you make but you paint all NON-JW with such a broad brush that you cannot see the distinctions among those non-JW who call themselves Christians. This is a major mistake and if you think more about it, you will realize that if a Moslem lumped you in with all Christians, you would try to help them to see a difference. So you need to rethink that. (cont'd)
When you look outside the CHANNEL, you see only one mass of what you seem to call CHRISTENDOM. You lump them all together and any criticism of one (book selling, greed, etc) goes with all of them. My Church may have nothing to do with accusations you make but you paint all NON-JW with such a broad brush that you cannot see the distinctions among those non-JW who call themselves Christians. This is a major mistake and if you think more about it, you will realize that if a Moslem lumped you in with all Christians, you would try to help them to see a difference. So you need to rethink that. (cont'd)
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misterg:
1 year ago
You missed a couple of important things in our discussion. First the point was not about EVE being created 6000 years ago and if that was right or wrong. It was about this CHANNEL giving out information that was let me say misleading. One could use a stronger word but I won't. if they are to be the CHANNEL for Jehovah, then what they say needs to be the truth. It has always been that way with the PROPHET of God which is what the CHANNEL ends up being. And the Bible says that if the prophet says something and it does not come to pass, then it is a false prophet. Now on to me, and what I believe, and how is it different. I believe my salvation is not through a CHANNEL but through a PERSON. Paul said, "I know WHOM I have beliieved..." He did not say "I know WHAT, or WHEN, or HOW" Salvation and the way to Jehovah is through a person. The person is Jesus. If I were on a desert island, I would indeed need a Bible, because I would only have creation to tell me about God, but with only the Bible I would be able to find it all. I learn that man is sinful. Sin separates us from our creator God. I learn that my own works are inadequate to save me from his judgment. I learn that Jesus came not just to take the penalty for my sin on the cross, but also to impute to me THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, and to adopt me into his family and a child of God (This is all in Romans, see 5, and 8). (cont'd)
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misterg:
1 year ago
And what God requires of me (and it is not WORKS) is only that I take this free gift. Romans 10. We in the Church call this GRACE and it is based on God's Mercy, this provision of Jesus to take our sin and give us his Righteousness. We call that being Born Again John 3. And since this is all the work of God and not my good works, it gives me assurance of salvation. See the end of Romans 8. So you can see that this is a very great difference between what we believe. As for preaching, I sometimes have to smile when JW tell me that they are the only ones witnessing. I ask, how do you think so many people are coming to Christ? Christians witness. Not all go door to door but who said that door to door, only to strangers is the only way that Jesus said we should witness. We witness all the time to people whom God brings into our life circle. Dash, at the risk of breaking my own rule, and painting with too broad a brush, there are really only two religions in the world. One is where you try to get to God by your good works. The other is where you recognize your inability and are totally dependent on the provision of God and his Grace and Mercy and find God's righteousness that way. We in call that THE GOSPEL or GOOD NEWS. So, this is not to convince you of anything, but just to try and capture what I think is the differences. It was nice getting to know you. See you around. G
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Daniel 12:4:"And as for you O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant". Yes Jehovah's witnesses are the ones who are spreading this True Knowledge, and thus again fulfilling bible prophecy. I told you before that Plato's teachings were contaminated with the Catholics teachings. That poison has mislead millions of people.1 Tim 4:1: However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron. We are back by Gods holy spirit to do this fine work. We are in 235 lands throughout the world, to preach the good news of the kingdom, and make disciples. This prophecy of truth being spread throughout the world and thus is being fulfilled. Matthew 11:25:At that time Jesus said in response: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes Jehovah is the who is revealing this truth to us. Stop spreading the lies of Plato's philosophies. Jehovah God is fed up with the lies. There was a resent news report that many in christendom religions, the numbers are dropping with in the millions. The interesting thing that they said was that Jehovah's witnesses numbers were rising.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Hi JT, Just to remind you. Oddplatano asked about what of JW doctrine we disagree with. So when you read responses, they are not going to be things people agree with. And, to comment on your application of Daniel 12, It sounds like you are saying that Jehovah's Witnesses apply this passage, which is clearly about the end time events being hidden, and then interpret it to mean that fundamental Christian doctrines would be hidden, and that God now has revealed these to the Faithful Slave. Things like doctrines about Salvation, Heaven, Hell, the Holy Spirit, the soul,144,000 etc, which JWs hold different beliefs about. You are suggesting that these would all be lost for 1900 years until Russell and Rutherford were given them back again in the late 1800's - 1900s. Well, what can i say. "Senor Oddplatano, add that one to the list". G
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I now understand that we will always agree to disagree. I had a question for you, what is the name of your church. I just wanted to know because I wonder if your island by yourself. The bible clearly say do not forsake the gathering of yourselves like Hebrews brought out. The Christian meetings is were we get our spiritual food. Our meetings are preparing us for armageddon. We need this vital food in these last days. This is something you will never understand about us. We are the only ones who are doing Gods will here on earth.
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misterg:
1 year ago
Never say "never", JT. I was raised as a Catholic and left the Catholic Church years ago. If you read my posts to Dash, you will know that I have family and friends who are JW and I also know some who have left JW. So things change whey God opens people's eyes. As for my Church, I am an evangelical Christian. It is not a denomination, but independent Church. We hold to several non-negotiables as far as doctrine is concerned. One is who God is and who Christ is. We hold to the importance and the unchanging message of the Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) being the message as Paul presents it in 1 Cor 15.1-3 Christ died for our sin (not just Adam) and he was buried, and he was raised bodily. And that we are not saved by works (Romans 4, Titus 3:4-7) because it is impossible. We hold that Salvation is the work of God and it is by Faith in Christ. Christ takes or sin and nails it to the Cross, paying our penalty, and we get imputed to us the Righteousness of God (see Romans 1). We believe we are saved unto Good Works and Faith without evidence of good works (Ephesians 2:10) is dead faith (James 2). We believe that we are all immortal and after we die, we do not sleep but our soul is separated from the body. (Absent from this body is to be present with the Lord). We face judgment and only with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ can we meet God's perfect Judgment. So the exact Church building I go to makes little difference. I can attend any number of Churches (though I attend one) and the actual CHURCH is not a building but the people of God. The desert Island idea is just my way of illustrating that we believe the Bible contains all we need to find salvation and a relationship with God and it does not require that we connect with a channel which is providing a means of salvation. The "Ark" for us is not an organization or a Church denomination but salvation by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. (cont'd)
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misterg:
1 year ago
I mentioned to Dash that I have family who are JW and from what I know about the KH meetings and what some have described, it is very different. Church is a Worship service. Prayer, Music used to help us connect with God in a special way. Sometimes there are people in the Church who are specially gifted by God, musically and they offer their gift to God and we are all blessed by it and can worship God together through it. Some even write Biblical songs for worship and we sing them together. It is much more free expression of worship than you experience I think. We sit under a teaching of the Word of God which is a sermon that lasts from 30 to 40 minutes on a Bible passage with life application. If you are curious, you can hear such sermons on Christian radio stations. The KH meetings seem more like an operational meeting about how to do the work you do. Our mid week meeting is a prayer meeting, where we gather to pray together about things we need to bring before God, sometimes in small circles of friends, and we use that time to hear testimonies of how God is at work in our lives. We have Bible classes. Right now I am teaching the book of Hebrews. So that is what Church is like for me. And yes, it is different. But I don't doubt nor criticize your sincerity. I hope I did not say anything offensive because that was not my purpose and if I did, please accept my apology. G
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Mesterg just wanted to say thank for letting me know how you worship. I to grew up as a catholic in childhood. The I would go to evangelical churches with my aunt, uncle and cozens. I would look at their conduct and saw how my cozens do drug and have sex before marriage. My uncle would even take his under age son to strip clubs. I thought this was wrong and thought to myself that there should be some kind of consequence to their actions, but there never was. I also saw how the the pasture leader was getting rich. Then some of my other family members donated 10's of thousands of dollars to their churches and they lost everything. Then I met a man who told me how he and other pastures would get together and have meetings about how to profit off the people who went to church. He even told me the way to get rich is to open your own church. I was so saddened by hearing this, but I still went to church. I then would try and ask questions about the bible to the pasture and he would say just read your bible and then walk away. But what really got me was the idea that when a family member of mine die they would say that God took him and said it was his time. The bible clearly says that for evil things God cannot be tried and nor does He try anyone. Death is a thing we were not meant to go through we were meant to live forever. A lot of my family members do not want any thing to do with God because of that reson. I was also the type of person that didn't like singing loud,dancing, throwing myself on the floor,or speaking in tongues. I somehow knew that that wasn't the correct way to worship God. Then I prayed to know the truth. Then one day Jehovah's witnesses came to my door and they taught me the truth about everything I wanted to know. I found out that that I was lied to about Christmas. I was shocked to find out the pagan poison the was seeped into Christian worship and thus distorting the word of God. I found out so many things about God and his son, And I am still learning more truths.
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misterg:
1 year ago
JT, what a horrible experience. What hypocrisy to make Church into something for personal gain. I can see how that would turn you off. Your experience reminds me of what Jesus saw when he went to the temple and found people making personal gain out of worship. And we know what he did. Your experience is why I mentioned to DASH that he should not lump all non jW's into the term CHRISTENDOM. I think you can find a wide variation of things done under the name "Christian" and I don't feel obligated to defend a lot of it as real Christian. I think we would agree on something. We would both tell someone in a Church like that to "GET OUT OF IT, QUICKLY." One thing that is true for JW and for Christian Churches is that they are open for not just members but those who are searching for God as well, and we would not want to be judged by the lifestyles of anybody who comes through the door, but rather what is the standard of behavior for members. Members of my Church are expected to maintain some standards and there is Church Discipline like your disfellowshipping. Just a word about Christmas...You may know that in the early days of JW, they celebrated Christmas though I know you do not recognize the day any more. One way to get over the problem you have with Christmas is to think about it this way. In all of history, there are just a handful of days that are so significant in Jehovah's plan of salvation and redemption, that they stand out from the other million days of all history. One is a day we call the INCARNATION. You can call it what you want, but it truly is so significant,it is worth remembering and celebrating, even if we don't have the exact date. Anyway, I hope my comments of agreement about your terrible Church experience help to explain that there are differences. G
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Im am so glad that I got out of Babylon the Great. Thank you for agreeing with me about leaving. I will never go back to Christendom's false teachings.
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Yes I know that the early Jehovah's witnesses believed in Christmas and had the wrong thinking in many things. But as I wrote before, our organization changes to fit the standards of God, not the worlds standards. But as I said before that Christendom fits the worlds standards time and time again, they refuse to change. But our organizations light will always get brighter and brighter and separate ourselves from the worlds standards.
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misterg:
11 months ago
JT, Please don't lump all non JWs into Christendom. I am not JW and I do not agree with the experience that drove you from the Church. I pointed that out to you already, that you would want a Moslem to see the difference between a Catholic and a JW, who both call themselves Christian. I think you should understand that simple point. Also, how do you know that the teachings of the WT are right today? That is what I don't get. If you were a witness in 1900, you might have been sending Christmas Cards and claiming that the faithful slave was teaching only the truth of Jehovah, if there was an ASK.COM back then. But it was not. So this was my point to Dash (I think) where I said that you have it both ways. They are Jehovah's spokes group and speak only the truth, but if it is wrong, then they are only human. That is why I wanted to know if there is anything any one of you will admit to, that you do not agree with and there is nothing. The light getting brighter is a strange illustration for me because some of the teachings were just wrong and not just unclear. It was not a case where the picture was dim and then more detail shows with more light. Well, we covered a lot of this already. I hope you can understand that Jehovah's only means of salvation is Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12) and not by any righteousness we can offer. That is why I asked the question about the person who did not accept Jesus Christ for salvation but is faithful in the 1000 years and goes into to the new system, never having trusted in this life, in Jesus Christ for salvation. I hope you can grasp that from my question. Thanks for sharing. G
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BreP143:
10 months ago
i don't have an answer, but i really appreciate you clarifying and answering questions about us as Jehovah's witnesses. so many people have their own ideas and speculations about us and our religion so what better way to answer questions than on ASK.com :) keep up the good work my sister!
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In the beginning was the Word (Christ) and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. He (the Word/Christ) was in the beginning with God.
John 10:30
I and my Father are One (Jesus speaking)
John 10:38
Collossians 2:9
Phillipians 2:6
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In fact Christ and many others claim often that he is One with God, that they dwell within eachother and that Christ is the very image of God Himself. Even the Jews acknowledge his frequent claims at the time by frequently trying to kill him for blasphemy (because he called himself Onevwith God).