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jamshabam:
10 months ago
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Last edited at 12:01PM on 7/23/2012
Is this a question? I'm not sure why you singled out Atheists. It seems to me all of humanity is guilty, perhaps by nature, of this egocentricness.
Anyway, I enjoy Forster's summary of this topic the best: "Kant argues that the limits of cognition cannot be determined by calibrating concepts and methods against reality as it exists uncognized, for knowledge and reality can be gained only by means of those concepts and methods and thus no independent standard is available in philosophy." ("Kant's Architectonic Conception of Philosophy"). You may also enjoy an epistemological reading of Plato!
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I'm confused are you saying that atheism does make sense? Or it doesn't make sense?
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Atheist beleive a humans reason is the best way to know reality...
KANT has disproved this by showing clearly the limitations of such thought..
Read , learn about it, study...
That's why I asked this question ..
So people would use there brain a little more
KANT has disproved this by showing clearly the limitations of such thought..
Read , learn about it, study...
That's why I asked this question ..
So people would use there brain a little more
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Oh I see thank you for clarifying. It really doesn't matter to me anyway because I'm not an atheist.
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Yvw David ...
I figured you weren't a atheist..;)
But that being the case , I hope you use and understand this concept..
So "when" u are confronted... You can give an intelligent argument ..
My best wishes..
I figured you weren't a atheist..;)
But that being the case , I hope you use and understand this concept..
So "when" u are confronted... You can give an intelligent argument ..
My best wishes..
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;-)) lol
I just Turned there own argument against them...
Ty David cheers ;)
I just Turned there own argument against them...
Ty David cheers ;)
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
If your implying there is a school of thought outside of human reasoning it is not on earth. None of the other animals reason in a deeply fascinating way. In contrast to human reasoning all other animals appear primitive. Indeed we are bound by parameters but we know no other verifiable reason. If we did and it were grand we would all assimilate it like the use of science. We all mostly use electricity and pay bills because human reasoning has lead us to.
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You have said it .. "" indeed we have perameters ""
Atheist like to say based on their reason that a god is not knowable..
But "never" admitting their own limitations to their lack of understanding.
Ty for ur comments and making my point clear
Atheist like to say based on their reason that a god is not knowable..
But "never" admitting their own limitations to their lack of understanding.
Ty for ur comments and making my point clear
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
But to be more civil. God is within our parameters of thought: WE INVENTED HIM! You may protest he is unknowable like the gold glow in the suit case in pulp fiction but everyone in the industry or inner circle know IT'S A MACGUFFIN! As a magician and practicing illusionist it's my job to make sure people believe outrageous things. GOD IS REALITIES MACGUFFIN. As much as you protest it's clear that god is unknowable I see that it is and faith is a leap into the abyss followed by death and no one will prove otherwise. Watch your grandparents die one by one and you will see eternal life is not even for the elect. Macguffin. Reading from a book is not outside of our parameters. Macguffin. God can be told in cryptic speak like "he is not knowable..." Macguffin. "He is the creator of everything and cannot be understood." Macguffin. "God is as real as you and me but you cannot discern his presence from a powerful imagination." Macguffin. "You have to have faith for various reasons." Macguffin. Macguffin. Macguffin. Macguffin. Macguffin. I don't have to admit anything though I think we all understand limitations.
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It's plain you have missed Kants point..
Read till u understand .. ANYTHING YOU DO IS limited by ur bounds of reason... You mentioned reading was not though.. But .. Yes I'm sorry .. It IS...
You interpret every thing through your 5 senses and then bring it to the bar of your reasoning...
I'm sorry , Kants more intelligent than (macguffin) :-)
Whether u admit it or not is not my goal...
If a tree is falling on you and you refuse to admit it ... Your lack of admission will not "by no means" prevent that tree from crashing down on you..
You have made my point all too clear that you would reject God bc of reason.. But in Kants point you will reject Kants point in "unreasonable grounds" just bc you don't want to admit it...
Best of luck with
Macguffin ?;-/ philosophy
Read till u understand .. ANYTHING YOU DO IS limited by ur bounds of reason... You mentioned reading was not though.. But .. Yes I'm sorry .. It IS...
You interpret every thing through your 5 senses and then bring it to the bar of your reasoning...
I'm sorry , Kants more intelligent than (macguffin) :-)
Whether u admit it or not is not my goal...
If a tree is falling on you and you refuse to admit it ... Your lack of admission will not "by no means" prevent that tree from crashing down on you..
You have made my point all too clear that you would reject God bc of reason.. But in Kants point you will reject Kants point in "unreasonable grounds" just bc you don't want to admit it...
Best of luck with
Macguffin ?;-/ philosophy
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
You didn't read my comment with effective eyes. Reading out of a book IS NOT out side of our parameters and neither is writing one: Explicitly the bible. I was not saying Kants is a Macguffin: I am saying god is. You read my comment wrong and say I have no point when you cannot even see the meaning of it. Their is no god to reject therefore rejection is not an option. This goes back to burden of proof. You use your human reasoning to discern the bibles meaning with your human reasoning written by humans with human reasoning and act as though a god is outside of our parameters when it's clear god is a macguffin at best. Just because you protest an illusion is not one and then say there is logic in the illusion does not make it any truer. You operate on the same plain that I do: human reasoning. And just because you are deluded does not mean you have found reasoning outside of human reasoning; it means you are deluded. You cannot transcend your parameters any more than I and to protest such is to be deluded.
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
This is why a non-theist always wins. We accept and play our parameters to the fullest and theists think they are outside of human parameters: this is a delusion. Delusions don't win battles, flying spaghetti monsters do. It takes an army of unskilled warriors to defeat one who knows oneself.
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I mean my bust .. In that I know and acknowledge my limits as well...
My point is atheism cannot based on reason say there is no God..
As they frequently tend to do as Kant shows .. That is a fallacy
My point is atheism cannot based on reason say there is no God..
As they frequently tend to do as Kant shows .. That is a fallacy
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
No objective reality is discernible by humans at all. This is not exclusive to atheism. Though I may write in a book an unusual reason and though it may be followed by others does not give access to godly reason it only gives access to my intention. We are all within parameters and it cannot be looked outside of with any meaningful result. As I said god is easily a macguffin defined in a series of memes: cryptic or sometimes not. The same things can be said of anything else and it does not make any of it true it only reflects the reality of our parameters. Every single word we can say and have said is already their and because a study of literary figures deeper than pragmatics may exist without a word to describe it it is only a word even when stumbled upon. The series of memes that defines the explanation of god is all within our parameters and to attribute any greater sense to this memeplex is simply as arbitrary as worshiping a pineapple when you can define the parameters of our language. Human reason is the only point of reference we have to go by: the bible was written by humans and so was the FSM doctrine and the muslim one. We cannot transcend our parameters. I had a discussion about how we had no choice but to choose 'the dichotomy' with others and they refused to see a universe transcendent of our own in a free will discussion. I understand where you are coming from but when it comes to responsible decision making superstitions do not have a great deal to offer. We use an operable system based in observable reality because it's the only sensible thing to do when all we can observe is observable reality. The concept of a god is an irresponsible abuse of ignorance just like the FSM. From a logical stand point we must conclude no god exists. On a philosophical Kant is squarely saying that all reason is fallacious. As you peel back a layer an even deeper objectivity is buried under that because, responsibly, you have to consider compartmentalization when dealing with higher beings. You know what they need
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
you to know, not the whole truth.
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Some of your statement my brother is true..
But you as well as others fall back on ""observable reality "" and logic which is kin to reason ..
As Kant proves our "observable reality" is not nessasarily "reality" at all
We just would like it to be..
Therefore when you say it's logical there's no God...
You just would like it to be that way :-)
Kant coming on the seen turned reason on itself.. Philosophy has never been the same..
Cheers to you!
But you as well as others fall back on ""observable reality "" and logic which is kin to reason ..
As Kant proves our "observable reality" is not nessasarily "reality" at all
We just would like it to be..
Therefore when you say it's logical there's no God...
You just would like it to be that way :-)
Kant coming on the seen turned reason on itself.. Philosophy has never been the same..
Cheers to you!
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
I'm not saying I would like there to be no god, I'm saying it's better if we don't believe there is. Philosophy is not the same with Kant nor is it with the FSM. And as I said the layers of objective reality are endless to humans. Faith is all that can stop the flood of fallacy until you realize faith in itself is a function of our parameters along with reason. We cannot transcend. Delusion or definition it can all be questioned but only one can give real meaningful results.
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
I marvel at the depth of discourse. I now need to make some spaghetti
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
This topic always makes me hungry for Italian cuisine
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
It's not because we don't know everything that we don't know anything.
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CalTex:
10 months ago
At some point we have to put a stake in the ground and say, "This is reality." Atheists do it. Theists do it. Everyone except crazy people who cannot conceive of reality does it. So if you are going to questions atheists' view of reality, then by Kant's logic, you must question your own theological view of reality. Perhaps evolution is made up. Perhaps God is made up. But the alternative to knowing something is knowing nothing.
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:-))
Wouldn't we like to stake it down..
Unfortunately .. Kant proves we "can't"
And that a humans reason has it limitations to what is "knowable"
I accept my limits...
But as I can tell Atheist don't like admitting there own limits to what is "knowable" and realizing there reasoning "isn't" the end all of there fallible debate..
But I do see why ur do upset...
Bc at the end of the day you with many others don't want that to be true..
And I offer my profound apoligies that you must live with that knowledge..
Hence the reason I asked this question
Wouldn't we like to stake it down..
Unfortunately .. Kant proves we "can't"
And that a humans reason has it limitations to what is "knowable"
I accept my limits...
But as I can tell Atheist don't like admitting there own limits to what is "knowable" and realizing there reasoning "isn't" the end all of there fallible debate..
But I do see why ur do upset...
Bc at the end of the day you with many others don't want that to be true..
And I offer my profound apoligies that you must live with that knowledge..
Hence the reason I asked this question
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
Spang
It is theists who do not like admitting their own limits. Theists protest 'divine infallible knowledge.' Atheists have the sense to admit when they don't know instead of just making something up or taking some dogma books word for it. Your mind is the cause for why FSM was created. Push hard enough and monsters start popping out of thin air.
It is theists who do not like admitting their own limits. Theists protest 'divine infallible knowledge.' Atheists have the sense to admit when they don't know instead of just making something up or taking some dogma books word for it. Your mind is the cause for why FSM was created. Push hard enough and monsters start popping out of thin air.
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CalTex:
10 months ago
@thespang: I don't have much to add to what Truth said. I have no problem with admitting when I don't know something or changing my mind if confronted with over-whelming evidence to the contrary. As Truth said, theists (other than deists) are required to "know" what their particular holy book says is truth. Why are you refusing to apply Kant's logic to your own view? I don't hear you saying that your belief in a supernatural world may not be based on reality. I have repeated admitted in my various postings that I don't know if the supernatural is reality or not. All I know--based on my understanding of reality--is that there is no evidence that convinces me to support that concept as reality. I don't want there to NOT be a supernatural world. I just have not been convinced that there is..
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Your convincing is first bc man is not converted by his reasoning by by the Spirit of God...
I just wanted to show that relying on ones own reasoning is "never" enough
Bc it's limited to its confines from the start... As Kant shows...
That was my purpose for bringing this question to the table
I just wanted to show that relying on ones own reasoning is "never" enough
Bc it's limited to its confines from the start... As Kant shows...
That was my purpose for bringing this question to the table
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Cal were not that different really..
I do accept the limits of my reasoning.
Faith is what bridges those gaps..
As shiny said the bridge is still strong enough to hold me though...
I do accept the limits of my reasoning.
Faith is what bridges those gaps..
As shiny said the bridge is still strong enough to hold me though...
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Hey Cal...
Well .. No not putting it that way .. But
Faith and atheism are both under the limitations that Kant alludes to when it comes to reason..
Reason cannot be the end all of ones defense bc of the limitations it has..
Faith is a bridge.. That along "with" reason can bridge those gaps ..
But one must cross that bridge..
It will hold you and me..
We don't differ much ...
Pls excuse this awful analogy... :-)
In terms of golf .. When someone hits and "shanks" the ball it appears that's the worst / ugliest shot imaginable but in reality it's the closest thing to the purest shot u can hit...
My brain is fried chicken right now lol
Well .. No not putting it that way .. But
Faith and atheism are both under the limitations that Kant alludes to when it comes to reason..
Reason cannot be the end all of ones defense bc of the limitations it has..
Faith is a bridge.. That along "with" reason can bridge those gaps ..
But one must cross that bridge..
It will hold you and me..
We don't differ much ...
Pls excuse this awful analogy... :-)
In terms of golf .. When someone hits and "shanks" the ball it appears that's the worst / ugliest shot imaginable but in reality it's the closest thing to the purest shot u can hit...
My brain is fried chicken right now lol
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Hey Cal , Im srry , i really thought you were joking..
No faith (not a perception) is this.....
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1 NKJV)
Our reason has limitations that can only take us so far... The gap that is bridged that i mention and shiny alludes to is only accomplished by faith..
DR. Van till describes it the best in the definition of "presuppositional apologetics "----((( I do not understand in order to beleive but I beleive in order to understand , this I also beleive that unless I beleive, I should not understand..
If u have a grasp on theological term called "" total depravity "" shows the depravity of man, and also that man is not converted by mans reasoning but by the Spirit of God.. Bc from the very outset man is in rebellion towards God..
I hope this helps a little..
This is like attempting to condense a novel into a text..
Lmk
No faith (not a perception) is this.....
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1 NKJV)
Our reason has limitations that can only take us so far... The gap that is bridged that i mention and shiny alludes to is only accomplished by faith..
DR. Van till describes it the best in the definition of "presuppositional apologetics "----((( I do not understand in order to beleive but I beleive in order to understand , this I also beleive that unless I beleive, I should not understand..
If u have a grasp on theological term called "" total depravity "" shows the depravity of man, and also that man is not converted by mans reasoning but by the Spirit of God.. Bc from the very outset man is in rebellion towards God..
I hope this helps a little..
This is like attempting to condense a novel into a text..
Lmk
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O I forgot that you mention a bridge to nowhere..
Based in your on limits of reason you can't conclude it goes "nowhere"
Your faith wants it to go nowhere
Based in your on limits of reason you can't conclude it goes "nowhere"
Your faith wants it to go nowhere
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CalTex:
10 months ago
@thespang: Please don't tell me that my "faith wants it to go nowhere." You continue to assume that atheists have one goal, and that is to thwart all attempts at believing in God. Clue: I'm not trying to thwart anything. I simply don't believe. You do. That's fine. I get it. I used to be there myself. But please don't tell me what I think.
Faith is not "evidence of things not seen". It is evidence that the person who makes decisions based on faith is choosing to see the world (and other worlds as well) through a lens crafted out of faith. To see things your way, I would first need to perceive that God absolutely exist.
I have an advantage here because I was a true believer at one time, so I can relate to both sides of this issue. As a true believer I accepted as fact that belief in the supernatural is the default condition of mankind. But now I can see that lack of belief is the default condition and we must be taught to believe. Since all learning come from perception, the belief that comes from learning is also a matter of perception. The only way to "know" that faith is a bridge to reality, is to believe in God first. It's a case of circular logic.
Faith is not "evidence of things not seen". It is evidence that the person who makes decisions based on faith is choosing to see the world (and other worlds as well) through a lens crafted out of faith. To see things your way, I would first need to perceive that God absolutely exist.
I have an advantage here because I was a true believer at one time, so I can relate to both sides of this issue. As a true believer I accepted as fact that belief in the supernatural is the default condition of mankind. But now I can see that lack of belief is the default condition and we must be taught to believe. Since all learning come from perception, the belief that comes from learning is also a matter of perception. The only way to "know" that faith is a bridge to reality, is to believe in God first. It's a case of circular logic.
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CalTex:
10 months ago
@Caluvox: Thank you for your kind words, and I have enjoyed reading yours as well. I have no delusions of getting through to thespang. When I post I assume there are people on the fence who are reading the comments. If any of us, on either side of the issue, clarify anything in THEIR mind, then these exchanges are not futile.
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Cal go back and read... You just said my faith was a bridge to nowhere ..
C'mon ..
If your right and I'm wrong then these people your trying to pull down with your lack of faith die the same way regardless ...
But since you've admitted the possibility of being wrong you can contribute seperating young men an women from The love of God and a eternity without Him ..
And you call that equal???????
Wow ...
You'd rather be so right as to chance
Doing that so you can somehow sleep better..
God I pity you
C'mon ..
If your right and I'm wrong then these people your trying to pull down with your lack of faith die the same way regardless ...
But since you've admitted the possibility of being wrong you can contribute seperating young men an women from The love of God and a eternity without Him ..
And you call that equal???????
Wow ...
You'd rather be so right as to chance
Doing that so you can somehow sleep better..
God I pity you
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Btw caluvox .
Didn't even fathom the point of this question by his own admission..
But calls u spot on..
You offer them nothing.. And your quite proud to do so..
Shame on you
Didn't even fathom the point of this question by his own admission..
But calls u spot on..
You offer them nothing.. And your quite proud to do so..
Shame on you
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CalTex:
10 months ago
@thespang: If faith is as much a perception as knowledge (which it is), then a bridge constructed of faith is a bridge to more perceptions. Faith, like atheism, is an opinion based on individual perceptions. It appears you are over thinking this. But go on and continue reveling in your perceived cleverness.
As to your concern for the eternal salvation of youngsters. People bring up issues, as you have on occasion, and we simply respond. If our expressions of opinion are a threat, sobeit. If loosing young people is a concern for you, then stop asking questions that beg a response from atheists. What you are basically saying is (1) tell us what you think, and (2) shut up. Talk about mixed messages! We are not trying to recruit people to atheism. That is more the province of the true believers. But I have found it interesting that not one of the stories submitted by me or other atheists as to what made them atheist, attributes that enlightenment to other atheists. In fact, it was more likely to be over-bearing Christians which turned them from belief. Just something for you to think about.
Hope you are still praying for me. So far, so good.
As to your concern for the eternal salvation of youngsters. People bring up issues, as you have on occasion, and we simply respond. If our expressions of opinion are a threat, sobeit. If loosing young people is a concern for you, then stop asking questions that beg a response from atheists. What you are basically saying is (1) tell us what you think, and (2) shut up. Talk about mixed messages! We are not trying to recruit people to atheism. That is more the province of the true believers. But I have found it interesting that not one of the stories submitted by me or other atheists as to what made them atheist, attributes that enlightenment to other atheists. In fact, it was more likely to be over-bearing Christians which turned them from belief. Just something for you to think about.
Hope you are still praying for me. So far, so good.
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is a devastating work. A complete outline is here: http://userpages.bright.net/~jclarke/kant/intro.html
Most Atheists have not read it. Most Theists have not either. It is a deep, difficult, and penetrating look into the nature of knowledge, and our dependence on it. A foundational work on epistemology, and I remember the class I had on it in UCLA was like a bomb going off in my head.
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Well put as usual shiny..
Ty for your clear comments...
The shockwave of the explosion, regrettably, has not reached the understanding ears of those that need it the most..
Hence the reason I felt compelled to ask the question..
Very green indeed
Ty for your clear comments...
The shockwave of the explosion, regrettably, has not reached the understanding ears of those that need it the most..
Hence the reason I felt compelled to ask the question..
Very green indeed
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jamshabam:
10 months ago
Have you read Charles Sanders Peirce? Applying his perspectives to Kant (and Plato) is world-shaking!
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
" ? there is a reason, an interpretation, a logic in the course of scientific advance, and this indisputably proves to him who has perceptions of rational or significant relations, that man's mind must have been attuned to the truth of things in order to discover what he has discovered. It is the very bedrock of logical truth."
This is his reason, his neglected argument for the existence of God. His opinion and view of Kant is not one I have read.
This is his reason, his neglected argument for the existence of God. His opinion and view of Kant is not one I have read.
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Ty shiny.. I Forgot to respond :-/
Nowhere in my read do I see where this in any way removes the limitations of mans reason..
But a good read
Nowhere in my read do I see where this in any way removes the limitations of mans reason..
But a good read
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
This is about to drop off my follow-screen. Good thread, if deep!
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I don't know if human reason is the best. But it's the only one available to us...
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Well there's mans and Gods...
And sometimes God allows us the chance to receive His..
Ty for the comments
And sometimes God allows us the chance to receive His..
Ty for the comments
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
Wrong again spang. Their is no god therefore no gods reason. All human reason though some is disguised as the illusion of gods. Your understanding is just as limited except you restrict it to a fairy tale book.
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Even if God does exist, we cannot reason like God nor understand God. There is a Jewish exegetical principle that says "the Torah talks in the tongue of humans" ( in Hebrew: dibra tora bilshon bnai adam), meaning that we only need to apply human reasoning to understand it, as no other is available to us.
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Ty truth.. Your statement "there is no god" that's ur limited reason speaking as well is it not? Hmmmm
:-)
:-)
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Truthisobviousliesar:
10 months ago
It most definitively is my limited, yet forged from wisdom and spiritual battle, reason speaking. But we are all limited to our human reasoning as you have learned. Though a god may or may not have gifted you with knowledge your reasoning remains human and once more defined by your parameters.
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LIOR ... I do agree..
Another verse sums that up as well
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, ?He catches the wise in their own craftiness? ; (1 Corinthians 3:19 NKJV)
Or
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25 NKJV)
Ty LIOR
Another verse sums that up as well
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, ?He catches the wise in their own craftiness? ; (1 Corinthians 3:19 NKJV)
Or
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25 NKJV)
Ty LIOR
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
I think the point is not which one is better, it's that knowledge is limited.
For example, I am a professional. I should know things within my profession. If given the chance to examine a person, I can give you my impression of his pathology, and why I find it so. But I may get it wrong. I have on occasion made mistakes.
The point of Kant is that even rational people make honest mistakes. We do so because we have limited knowledge, as well as limits to what we can know, and what we can ever know. And there is a lot more but that's relevant.
For example, I am a professional. I should know things within my profession. If given the chance to examine a person, I can give you my impression of his pathology, and why I find it so. But I may get it wrong. I have on occasion made mistakes.
The point of Kant is that even rational people make honest mistakes. We do so because we have limited knowledge, as well as limits to what we can know, and what we can ever know. And there is a lot more but that's relevant.
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Well put.. In the words of "truth"
Spaghetti monster.. Lol
LIOR read truths rhetoric you'll get the laugh lmao
Spaghetti monster.. Lol
LIOR read truths rhetoric you'll get the laugh lmao
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caluvox:
10 months ago
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Last edited at 2:28PM on 7/23/2012
The thesis behind your idea is that there is human reasoning and gods reasoning, however I think you miss the fact that atheists do not recognize the latter, i.e. it is not "gods" but in fact is mans as written in the bible by men.
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
That's not the point of Kant. See my link and you will get a digest.
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caluvox:
10 months ago
I think I would rather pull one of my teeth then read that again. Its easier to read a Technical manual. That said it did not sway me from the concept that theists view the world through one filter, or starting point, and atheists from another. It's two people looking at the same object on the ground from two different points of view, they may see the same item(life,the world) but draw opposing conclusions.
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Lmao caluvox
I feel your pain ..
You made me have a deep gut wrenching laugh...
I suggest small bites when eating elephant :-)
I'm glad you tried my brother
I feel your pain ..
You made me have a deep gut wrenching laugh...
I suggest small bites when eating elephant :-)
I'm glad you tried my brother
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KevinBuckner:
10 months ago
@shinypate1&thespang..ty for your time to seek the truth out and teach others, I'm edified. If I may add that, God says the beginning of knowledge is to fear Him. So with that being said, those who don't believe cannot fear what they dont believe exists. I believe this is a spiritual fear as it requires love and obediance to the uttermost of our being. The reading of Job really puts it to rest for me, when God explains the creation ouround Job. For the most part God doesn't ask anyone to prove him to anyone, for Faith is required . How much more the reward will be for those who haven't seen Christ because of the faith...I pray all will one day accept God, sadly though the bible mentions the road that leads to destruction is wide, there will be many who find it.
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
If Kant were easy reading, everyone would have read him. That most haven't, is testimony to the difficulty.
Knowledge has limits. We can get it wrong. We can not know because of many reasons, including ignorance, etc. I assume good will and honest approach but I find just reading a hard read is a challenge to honesty. ;)
Knowledge has limits. We can get it wrong. We can not know because of many reasons, including ignorance, etc. I assume good will and honest approach but I find just reading a hard read is a challenge to honesty. ;)
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A challenge in deed ..
Ty Kevin ..sincerely.. And shiny as well
I knew posing this question is like offering the readers of it the "blue pill" In the matrix... A rabbit hole of wonders but hard to explain through texting without writing a novel..
You encouraged me as well greatly as I feel like brain fried chicken commenting to 8 different threads of discourse ...
Satan is telling me I need a jello shooter... Pls pray lol
Ty Kevin ..sincerely.. And shiny as well
I knew posing this question is like offering the readers of it the "blue pill" In the matrix... A rabbit hole of wonders but hard to explain through texting without writing a novel..
You encouraged me as well greatly as I feel like brain fried chicken commenting to 8 different threads of discourse ...
Satan is telling me I need a jello shooter... Pls pray lol
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yirmeyahu:
10 months ago
via iPhone
You're confusing Modernity with atheism. Not all atheists are Modern thinkers.
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shinypate1:
10 months ago
via iPhone
Not all are thinkers. They arrive at atheism through appetites. The ones who are intellectual are at least interesting.
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
So what reason, if not human reason, should we go with? We are the most "reasonable" species on this planet, aren't we? Oh, let me guess...god's reason right? But for a human to understand god’s message, he must use his reason correct? He must base it on scriptures written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus interpreted by and based on the "reasoning" of those humans, right?
And for use to personally interpret and understand god's message (we wouldn't want to just blindly follow it, that would be...unreasonable) we require the human ability to reason, correct? Or perhaps you are eluding to the "reason" of our ancestors, of those who shaped and amended religion to become the nice sanitized little package of money and power we have grown to worship without question. Well, as far as I know, that's still based on "human reason" except these people also "reasoned" that you should…
continued...
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
Kill your own family if they try to turn you away from god. Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB
“Laws” of rape – Pay the father and marry the girl. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery, it’s all good! Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
to name but a few of the abhorent and uncivilized directives from the big guy himself!
Do you follow those "reasonable" directives thespang? Did you marry your wife after raping her and paying her father off? Sounds harsh doesn’t it but you are the ones saying it’s the word of god, not me! You are the one saying we shouldn’t “reason” it out!
And if you don't follow certain things, who are you to interpret what is right or acceptable from the word of god himself? According to the bible, you should be smitten as well for heresy. So if you are a true follower...
And don't you have to rely on your own “reasoning” to determine what you should pick and choose from god’s directives.
So what "reason" do you suggest we rely on, thespang?
“Laws” of rape – Pay the father and marry the girl. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery, it’s all good! Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
to name but a few of the abhorent and uncivilized directives from the big guy himself!
Do you follow those "reasonable" directives thespang? Did you marry your wife after raping her and paying her father off? Sounds harsh doesn’t it but you are the ones saying it’s the word of god, not me! You are the one saying we shouldn’t “reason” it out!
And if you don't follow certain things, who are you to interpret what is right or acceptable from the word of god himself? According to the bible, you should be smitten as well for heresy. So if you are a true follower...
And don't you have to rely on your own “reasoning” to determine what you should pick and choose from god’s directives.
So what "reason" do you suggest we rely on, thespang?
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Clearly evident your emotions have caused you to miss the ENTIRE point of Kant.. Try again if you like.
..
Also just left you a reply to your comment left today on the other thread..
Enjoy
..
Also just left you a reply to your comment left today on the other thread..
Enjoy
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
Instead of saying I missed the concept of Kant, why don't you answer my question? You know why, because you simply...Kant.
Instead of relying on other people's theories, why don't you use YOUR brain and answer my question, "as beneath you" as it may be.
Instead of relying on other people's theories, why don't you use YOUR brain and answer my question, "as beneath you" as it may be.
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Now let's see..
1.You cannot grasp Kant.
2. You have writers of the bible Absurd, prehistoric thinkers, without wisdom, and That I beleive ""outdated fear driven thinkers to feed my insecurities "".
3, And God is just there do people can cope.
Well not only does your wisdom/understanding seem to even closely resemble or come close to those of antiquity but .. It also is calling astroners and Scientific Nobel Prize winners of today idiots ;-)
I'll quote the two for you again in case you missed it.....
Arno Penzias.. Nobel prize((( for discovering the cosmic background radiation that corroborates the big bang theory )))
Said I quote """ The "best" data we have are exactly what I would expect what I would've predicted had I nothing to go on but the 5 books of Moses, the psalms, and the bible as a whole.."""
Looks like science JUST caught up to these idiots you refer wrote the bible..
Renowned Astronomer Robert Jastrow.. Put it the best describing what you call these writers, (( idiots as you say))
I quote """ For scientist who has lived by his "faith" (( funny)) """ in the power of reason , the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the last peak. As he pulls himself over the last rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians that have been sitting there for centuries..
By your argument we are all idiot fear based people ...
By their argument the ignorance falls to you
1.You cannot grasp Kant.
2. You have writers of the bible Absurd, prehistoric thinkers, without wisdom, and That I beleive ""outdated fear driven thinkers to feed my insecurities "".
3, And God is just there do people can cope.
Well not only does your wisdom/understanding seem to even closely resemble or come close to those of antiquity but .. It also is calling astroners and Scientific Nobel Prize winners of today idiots ;-)
I'll quote the two for you again in case you missed it.....
Arno Penzias.. Nobel prize((( for discovering the cosmic background radiation that corroborates the big bang theory )))
Said I quote """ The "best" data we have are exactly what I would expect what I would've predicted had I nothing to go on but the 5 books of Moses, the psalms, and the bible as a whole.."""
Looks like science JUST caught up to these idiots you refer wrote the bible..
Renowned Astronomer Robert Jastrow.. Put it the best describing what you call these writers, (( idiots as you say))
I quote """ For scientist who has lived by his "faith" (( funny)) """ in the power of reason , the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the last peak. As he pulls himself over the last rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians that have been sitting there for centuries..
By your argument we are all idiot fear based people ...
By their argument the ignorance falls to you
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
Again, I see a lot of words, but none of them your own. You can do better, or perhaps I just expect too much of you. If I am, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to knock over your little house of cards but in my defense, it never was very sturdy to start of with.
Now go on telling me what i do not grasp and quoting from the select group of people who possess an intellect but are still too fearful to let go of their warm blanky.
Now go on telling me what i do not grasp and quoting from the select group of people who possess an intellect but are still too fearful to let go of their warm blanky.
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I've said enough.. You just said that a Nobel Prize winner is in fear and needs a blanket ...
They totally refute some clearly, false statements and opinions you state and that's the best you can come up with ?? All this time I thought you wanted the truth..
It would've been better for you if you just said " I hate God and don't care"
Now you look absurd and foolish..
Dale Carnegie had you in mind with his statement I Quote
""""" A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"""""
Please call Arno and tell him that he's wrong.. Give him facts just based on your own reasoning and opinion ..
I'm sure He will listen
They totally refute some clearly, false statements and opinions you state and that's the best you can come up with ?? All this time I thought you wanted the truth..
It would've been better for you if you just said " I hate God and don't care"
Now you look absurd and foolish..
Dale Carnegie had you in mind with his statement I Quote
""""" A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"""""
Please call Arno and tell him that he's wrong.. Give him facts just based on your own reasoning and opinion ..
I'm sure He will listen
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NotOfThisEarth:
10 months ago
The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud
Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin
I guess they can't grasp your circular reasoning either.
Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin
I guess they can't grasp your circular reasoning either.
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Absurd and foolish.. I wouldnt speak about my points either..
At least you know..
Good day
At least you know..
Good day
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You asked why Atheist...
I addressed it that way because God is not reasonable to them .. As such they discount God bc of there "reasoning".. But Kant proves the limitations to such a fallacy
On the whole, I vote that we know only in part, and that part is suspect. But like CalTex, I have to trust that, although the bridge over the chasm is rickety, it can hold me until I reach the other side, because others have gone before.
I don't mind the argument that some Atheist say they don't know...or can't ..
It the ones one here that say they do know God doesn't exist bc of their reason..
I decided to bring a question to the table that reflects the ignorance of such a claim.. Ty again!!
I suspect our coffee in the mornings would be a fun rabbit hole of conversations
@spang Those Atheists that profess any certainty are in error, just like the Fundamentalists of any other Theism. Kudos to you for rooting them out, and I hope you will continue to be a champion Kant's philosophy! I'm glad you recognize not all Atheists are like that.
And reality is perspective, as varied as each individual and all equally valid. I cannot believe people as well read as you guys can't clearly see that.