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The bible is written by men who had the holy spirit, God spoke to them and through them. Every word of the bible is true. I believe that. Read it, if you haven't, from beginning to end, asking God to reveal His words to you. He will!
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florabellehayes:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Amen!
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LoraK:
9 months ago
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Amen :)
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jjjjj13:
9 months ago
via iPhone
So you are saying that the earth is only 6000 years old and that two people started the entire human race? I pity your blindness and sincerely hope you wake up one day.
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pious666:
9 months ago
via iPhone
How did god speak to them? Did god take possession of their mind and destroyed their free will while communicating with them? How do you know if a man is inspired? Joseph Smith has also claimed inspiration, why don't you believe then that the book of Mormon is inspired?
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LoraK:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Since I did not post a question, or ask for a debate, but simply answer a question with my own belief, feel free to answer your questions here, I will be glad to read it.
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pious666:
9 months ago
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I just did? Mind answering the above!!
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LoraK:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Actually my last comment was not directed to you but I will comment on yours since you asked. First off, I do not argue or even debate with people who have their own beliefs. I do not want my beliefs taken from me, I am thankful to be able to be. Christian freely. I also know that I cannot change someone else's mind :) my conclusion would be that the bible says that a persons eyes and minds do not open unless the Father opens them, All I have the power to do is plant seeds. The bible also says not to argue beliefs with others.
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pious666:
9 months ago
via iPhone
That seems too convenient, eh! By the way, if you fear that your faith can be taken from you, then you should reevaluate it!! Just saying..
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LoraK:
9 months ago
via iPhone
I will say one opinion I have gained reading your words, you apparently love to debate :) have fun!
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Jenni18:
9 months ago
pious, I could respond to some of the things you said but there are too many. Some time in the future you should submit questions one at a time, and if I see them I will respond to them. I will respond to one thing right now. I don't believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. The best thing you can do if you want interchange of ideas is to submit questions one point at a time and do it in a respectful manner.
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Red_Junger:
9 months ago
I follow everything the Bible says as 100% truth.
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PsalmBody:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Two Important Points: Jesus
Gave The New Testament
Church A Better Way of
Life. Also, Remember
Jesus Teaches Us
To Respect/Love
E a c h Other
Not Hate.
J e s u s
Loves
You.
Gave The New Testament
Church A Better Way of
Life. Also, Remember
Jesus Teaches Us
To Respect/Love
E a c h Other
Not Hate.
J e s u s
Loves
You.
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Red_Junger:
9 months ago
Where in the Bible does it say we kill people who don't believe in Jesus. That sounds more Muslim.
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That's why it's said Christians hardly read the bible!! Read:
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." ?Luke 19:27.
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." ?Luke 19:27.
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
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Red_Junger:
9 months ago
Um.. YOU read! Luke 19:27 is a parable with nothing to do with killing non believers... *The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was nearing Jerusalem, he told them a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away. He said, ?A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. Before he left, he called together ten of his servants and divided among them ten pounds of silver, saying, ?Invest this for me while I am gone.? But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ?We do not want him to be our king.?
?After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits were. The first servant reported, ?Master, I invested your money and made ten times the original amount!?
??Well done!? the king exclaimed. ?You are a good servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.?
?The next servant reported, ?Master, I invested your money and made five times the original amount.?
??Well done!? the king said. ?You will be governor over five cities.?
?But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, ?Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn?t yours and harvesting crops you didn?t plant.?
??You wicked servant!? the king roared. ?Your own words condemn you. If you knew that I?m a hard man who takes what isn?t mine and harvests crops I didn?t plant, why didn?t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.?
?Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, ?Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten pounds.?
??But, master,? they said, ?he already has ten pounds!?
??Yes,? the king replied, ?and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. And as for these enemies of mine who didn?t want me to be their king?bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.?? (Luke 19:11-27 NLT)*
And as far as Deuteronomy goes, that was the Jewish law and what happened then doesn't apply now because Jesus said He was the law therefore we don't need to strive to follow Jewish law.
?After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits were. The first servant reported, ?Master, I invested your money and made ten times the original amount!?
??Well done!? the king exclaimed. ?You are a good servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.?
?The next servant reported, ?Master, I invested your money and made five times the original amount.?
??Well done!? the king said. ?You will be governor over five cities.?
?But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, ?Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn?t yours and harvesting crops you didn?t plant.?
??You wicked servant!? the king roared. ?Your own words condemn you. If you knew that I?m a hard man who takes what isn?t mine and harvests crops I didn?t plant, why didn?t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.?
?Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, ?Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten pounds.?
??But, master,? they said, ?he already has ten pounds!?
??Yes,? the king replied, ?and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. And as for these enemies of mine who didn?t want me to be their king?bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.?? (Luke 19:11-27 NLT)*
And as far as Deuteronomy goes, that was the Jewish law and what happened then doesn't apply now because Jesus said He was the law therefore we don't need to strive to follow Jewish law.
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Red_Junger:
9 months ago
Once again forgive the question marks in the verses my iPod doesn't copy and paste well.
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You just copy pasted what you were taught. The Luke quote was very clear & doesn't fall into the parable excuse. As for the validity of Jewish laws (or OT) here's how Jesus endorsed the whole of OT:
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:18-19
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)
Were these parables too!!
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:18-19
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)
Were these parables too!!
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Red_Junger:
9 months ago
And once again Jesus describes in another chapter what the law is worth compared to following Him.
(story of the rich man asking about Heaven)
Jesus gives us common sense though. So when I say we can ignore the law I'm not saying we should nix the Ten Commandments. Instead the stupid, yet kinda hilarious, laws in Deuteronomy we don't follow. I.e. Deuteronomy 25:11-12 LOL
(story of the rich man asking about Heaven)
Jesus gives us common sense though. So when I say we can ignore the law I'm not saying we should nix the Ten Commandments. Instead the stupid, yet kinda hilarious, laws in Deuteronomy we don't follow. I.e. Deuteronomy 25:11-12 LOL
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Cloud the issue? I think this is a loaded question. R u seeking an argument or Truth?
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People will find fault with anything and everything. The Bible is just a book, without the Holy Spirit
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luke73tnt:
9 months ago
via iPhone
You said luke in the desc that my name and it's also in the bible mother of god...IM SOEACIL?(^o^)??????
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yirmeyahu:
9 months ago
via iPhone
In my opinion, Luke's organization presents only a portion of the picture but thoroughly displays that portion. To your question: most American Christians don't listen to Jesus' teachings because most of us are wealthy, and we would rather not use our wealth to help out those ostracized in the community. In fact, we often are the ones ostracizing others, doing the exact opposite of what Luke's gospel shows Jesus us all about.
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caluvox:
9 months ago
That was the point behind my question, someone was telling me they lived there live as Jesus would teach and I pointed out "sell all your things and give it to the poor" and he acted like I was from mars.and then I pointed out Jesus said when asked what commandments I should follow Jesus said (in short) Do not murder, steel,adultery, Bear false witness and to honor your M & F, and love thy neighbor. He told me I didn't know what I was talking about. :/
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yirmeyahu:
9 months ago
via iPhone
The command was a hyperbole, and not all are called to such an extreme. But all are called to do more than what they think they can. I don't preach this from hypocrisy, though occassionally I am prejudiced against salesmen, mechanics, doctors, or politicians.
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caluvox:
9 months ago
It just got me wondering how many people know the words that Jesus said vs what a preacher told them he said. I mean I'm a non believer but I have read his teachings and think they are awesome. but how can someone profess to being a follower and not know what he said?
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yirmeyahu:
9 months ago
via iPhone
They usually believe his message was about himself, that he claimed to be God, and that they must accept this fact, say it out loud, and have a metaphysical relationship with him that is virtually an imaginary friend. Not much could be further from the picture given in the Gospels. Jesus wasn't egocentric, he claimed to be God once or twice in John (possibly), and his message was how to apply the Torah to everyday life by helping others. He is portrayed as the Messiah, a prophet-turned-king figure, sitting on a throne in Heaven, being our advocate in the divine court, having claimed victory over sin and death; not as an imaginary friend to believe in. Brevard Childs says to know God is to know his will and do it. Jesus said if we don't take care of the poor, he will disavow us. Presuming this is true, Jesus doesn't advocate for too many who call themselves Christian, and he may advocate for some who don't.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
You are truly a prophet that cuts both believers and unbelievers. Rather than seeking the comfort of the usual, it's refreshing to be spanked by you! Green
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Christian rarely follow Jesus. If they did, they would be Jewish. Instead, they follow Paul, who never met Jesus not understood him, yet thought he did better than those who did know Jesus. Paul turned what Jesus said or did on its head.
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yirmeyahu:
9 months ago
via iPhone
In Paul's defense, most Christians misunderstand him as well due to a poor writing style. I have found that some of his longer works can actually be a fairly decent commentary on the Torah when one can actually get a visual diagram of his long, run-on sentences. Agreed though, his portrait of both Jesus and the Tanakh is relatively skewed, and it's sometimes difficult to see how he fits into the canon.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
Lior, That is not true. Christians do not follow Paul or any other man. They follow Jesus and even the questions asked of christians on Ask, they state that in their answers. So, it is a gross untruth for you to answer this person this way. It is not true. You have been involved in the same comment area where it was easy to see that they spoke of Jesus as the Saviour. So, it simply was a lie to say otherwise.
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Caluvox, do you believe that the muslims are very close to the teachings of Jesus?
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Magdalene, what you are not appreciating is the difference between following what Jesus said, or following what Paul said about Jesus. What most Christians do is the latter, not the former. Most of Christian doctrine comes from the teaching of Paul. Most scholars I have read refer to Paul as the inventor of Christianity. My comment is not on whether Christianity is right or wrong (you already know my views on that). It's about what Christianity is.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
I have not known one single christian who follows Paul and I know many. The KEY factor here is that the Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God, and what Paul wrote in the Bible was directed by God. So, in truth, following the Bible means following God and not Paul. Following Jesus, the True Son Of God. I'm not trying to argue, just want to defend the Christ of the Bible. He is Who He says He Is. And I wanted to bring that out. When reading your comment, when I read the word, "Christianity", the thought came..."Christ" and I realize it is of utmost importance that we know who He is. I respect your right and the rights of others in their own views, but felt I must comment on this again. I follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and not man, whether scholor or no. The Holy Spirit operates under the leading of a Holy God, Who sent the sacrifice for me so I could be reunited with Him for eternity. His Holy Spirit has sealed my redemption for all of eternity as I obey Him. And, obey Him, I must.
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Mag, you seem to think the Holy Spirit is something to possess. It is not. I wonder what Christians would think of Muslims if we claimed that angel Gabriel was dwelt in us or that Allah, Gabriel, and Muhammad were one...
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I think we use the word follow in a different sense. You mean who you worship. Indeed Christians worship Jesus and not Paul. I mean by follow whose teaching do Christians follow. And mostly they follow Paul's teaching, not Jesus's. It's true that Paul's teaching revolve around Jesus, or more precisely about Paul's distorted conception of Jesus, but Paul's teaching deviates strongly from Jesus's, sometimes even contradictory to it.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Most Christians are not Jewish. As a Jewish Christians, I see what Lior is saying, JKG and Momo too... But gentile Christians are bound to he different from Jewish Christians, and vice versa. I think gentile Christians will not see caluvox's point as normative.
Paul correctly states that kashrut (the dietary laws) applies to Jews, and not to gentiles. Jesus kept Kashrut; this difference would seem to be a major difference, but it actually is something that Jews have always said: kashrut applies to Jews only. Paul and Jesus agree. Paul's instructions on meat offered to idols is a rabbinic-style observation that is within a (somewhat liberal for the time) Jewish tradition, yet applied to Gentiles.
Paul correctly states that kashrut (the dietary laws) applies to Jews, and not to gentiles. Jesus kept Kashrut; this difference would seem to be a major difference, but it actually is something that Jews have always said: kashrut applies to Jews only. Paul and Jesus agree. Paul's instructions on meat offered to idols is a rabbinic-style observation that is within a (somewhat liberal for the time) Jewish tradition, yet applied to Gentiles.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Momo, Mag's referring to the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is a cardinal doctrine of the church and normative. It is seen as a fulfillment of Jeremiah 34:34-36, where the Almighty places his law in the hearts of men. This means we have internalized the law, and it is Gods's work. We therefore do not need to be instructed to know God, for we shall all know him.
I believe this is only a partial fulfillment, and that there is a further future fulfillment of the promise, primarily to Jews. We all would like to have God's words internalized and to have personal, divine help within.
I believe this is only a partial fulfillment, and that there is a further future fulfillment of the promise, primarily to Jews. We all would like to have God's words internalized and to have personal, divine help within.
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You must mean Jeremiah 31:30-33, and you know that Jews interpret it differently, and that that prophecy was already fulfilled at the return to Zion from exile in Babylon centuries before Jesus. Once fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again.
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As I was saying, if Christians were following Jesus, i.e., also follow his example and his teaching, there would be Jewish: they would first convert to Judaism, accept the Law, then add belief in Jesus. That was also the requirement of the very early church of Gentiles and the source of debate between James and the Church of Jerusalem with Paul. And then Paul created a new religion, that undoubtedly Jesus would not have endorsed.
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caluvox:
9 months ago
@momo004, Do I feel Muslims are very close to the teachings of Jesus? I don't feel that Christians are nor Muslims, of the "big three" I would say Jews are the closest. I say this based only on history and one quote of Jesus.."Beware of false prophets, which come in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shell know them by their fruits." The crusade's, the inquasition, the Mores crusade, the "missionary" efforts in post Columbian America, the attacks on the world trade center, suicide bombings, all of these are evil fruits. With the exception of Mose's war of extermination and the current war of economic genocide in Israel and the west bank, the Jews have been rather peaceful.
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I don't know what the Mose war of extermination was. But economic genocide? Come on!
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caluvox:
9 months ago
Perhaps genocide was too extreme of a word to describe the laws, tax's and restrictions placed on the Palestinians in an apparent attempt to drive them out, and the unchecked settling of Jews on the westbank that have taken place over the last few decades, for that I apologize. The war of extermination I referred to was the Mose/Levi lead war in Canaan, which was rather horrific even by OT standards.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Lior: you argue as the Jewish Christians in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15). Its a logical position, and almost won out. Not for nothing, I sometimes wish it had; Christianity may be a Jewish sect today, if it had.
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The Christians opposed to Paul were Jewish Christians who said that the gentile had to come to Christ thru the gate of Judaism, including conversion and circumcision. Paul's contra argument was that Gentiles were not required to keep the law (including circumcision), that there was no gate save Jesus, because they had not pledged to keep the law at Sinai, and that the law was fulfilled anyhow by the work of Jesus.
The middle ground won out: James and the church decided that Gentiles did not have to keep the mitzvot, nor kashrut (save meat offered to idols and blood and things strangled, and regarding the mitzvot, from fornication) --Acts 15:28-29. NO other burdens were laid.
This is how the church resolved the dispute, but it did not stop the Jewish Christians from creating concerns all until the end of Paul's life. Diversity is difficult to manage, and this is why the canon law rules of heresy developed in later years.
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The Christians opposed to Paul were Jewish Christians who said that the gentile had to come to Christ thru the gate of Judaism, including conversion and circumcision. Paul's contra argument was that Gentiles were not required to keep the law (including circumcision), that there was no gate save Jesus, because they had not pledged to keep the law at Sinai, and that the law was fulfilled anyhow by the work of Jesus.
The middle ground won out: James and the church decided that Gentiles did not have to keep the mitzvot, nor kashrut (save meat offered to idols and blood and things strangled, and regarding the mitzvot, from fornication) --Acts 15:28-29. NO other burdens were laid.
This is how the church resolved the dispute, but it did not stop the Jewish Christians from creating concerns all until the end of Paul's life. Diversity is difficult to manage, and this is why the canon law rules of heresy developed in later years.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Lol Lior, you are right, it's a typo I missed. Je 31 it is.
I did not say it was correct, I merely said it is interpreted that way by Christians (tho yes I see it this way as well as your way). Your observation that Jews see it exclusively differently is mostly correct. However, Jews do recognize that there can be multiple fulfillments of a prophecy (a near and far fulfillment). For example, the current Zionist return is sometimes seen as a fulfillment of promises previously fulfilled by the Babylonian captivity. Many of the promises of the current time can be considered such also:
Israel victorious in battle
Bible passage: Isaiah 41:12-14
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1967, 1972, etc (no major fulfillment in Babylonian period).
2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: circa 450 BCE and late 1900s
3. Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for Israel
Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:11
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s (no question it was fulfilled by first Century BCE because of the wealth taken in the sacking of Jerusalem by Titus).
4.. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 476 BCE, late 1900's.
There are many others.
I did not say it was correct, I merely said it is interpreted that way by Christians (tho yes I see it this way as well as your way). Your observation that Jews see it exclusively differently is mostly correct. However, Jews do recognize that there can be multiple fulfillments of a prophecy (a near and far fulfillment). For example, the current Zionist return is sometimes seen as a fulfillment of promises previously fulfilled by the Babylonian captivity. Many of the promises of the current time can be considered such also:
Israel victorious in battle
Bible passage: Isaiah 41:12-14
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1967, 1972, etc (no major fulfillment in Babylonian period).
2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: circa 450 BCE and late 1900s
3. Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for Israel
Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:11
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s (no question it was fulfilled by first Century BCE because of the wealth taken in the sacking of Jerusalem by Titus).
4.. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 476 BCE, late 1900's.
There are many others.
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The mere fact that sometimes history more or less repeats itself does not necessarily mean that prophecies are recycled. I will not disagree that some Jews - specifically those from certain circles, like the Mizrahi movement - indeed see it this way. I never have. I always connect the ancient prophecies to the context relevant for them.
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The conflict between Paul and the Church of Jerusalem as you described is quite accurate. I do not understand Paul's argument as it doesn't make sense to me. I reject Jesus altogether, but I'd think that accepting him without the Torah would be like building the top floor of a building without laying first the foundations and the lower floors. Jesus's ministry was for Jews, and Jesus never said accept Gentiles without converting them first. Jesus never indicated that Paul's approach was acceptable for him. I find the arguments of James - the brother of Jesus who knew him best - most compelling, and I think James made a terrible mistake accepting the "compromise" you talked about, which was really surrender.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
No offense, guys, but it makes me happy that I didn't study alot of things from other beliefs and such Before, feeling the conviction of God in my heart concerning my life. At that conviction stemming from the God in the Bible and it revealing me that I was in need of the Saviour. Because as I read all this about topics and issues discussed in several above comments especially in the comments presented by Lior, it is so easy for me to see where it goes direcly against the Bible. First off, Jesus is not just any man, so it does not line up with the Bible in the most important area right off. And, the discussion of Paul and more. Paul was a follower of Jesus. The Bible never teaches otherwise. I would look up scripture for many things if I believed I should to reinforce my comments, but what has been done with the scriptures that do get mentioned anyway just shows me that it will do no good. But, it grieves my heart, because if we truly love one another (people, mankind) then it's easy to see that it brings up the truth that someone is in error and that is vital to say the least, in view of our eternity. I honestly don't know what the people who don't know the Jesus of the Bible experience. But, to know Him is truly something one is fully aware of in every way when they have truly given themselves to Him. One feels the presence of His Holy Spirit, that is even a tangible thing. He is alive and prompts our heart, He is near and not far off and the awareness of that lives within us and literally motivates us, He quickens our body when our body is weak and we are in need whether it be emotionally or physically, as it mentions that God did that for Jesus, He raised us from the dead...by that I mean...before Salvation, I was dead in my sins and now I not only know by faith that I am reborn...I am changed and still changing. It is truly a journey that is amazing. No other belief that I have ever heard spoken of has been one of such testimony as the one of my Jesus. I can call Him my Jesus because although He (below)
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magdalene:
9 months ago
died for all and has saved many, He is my Jesus as He is personal to each one of us. No mere man can do these things. But Jesus, the Jesus described in the Bible can. And He does. And, our testimonies are true to scripture. It has been argued, ridiculed and much more for many years now. But it holds up against the test of time and will last through eternity. Even the scriptures confirm the scriptures. So, if all the studying, which in general is a good thing, is what proves to slow one from coming to the Christ of the Bible for any reason, then I'm glad I came to my Saviour before the study. For now, I see and learn what others believe and I do see and understand and it only serves to confirm my faith. No offense intended at all. I do like to testify of my Lord and Saviour. He died, yes, but He is Alive and He has quickened me to Life as well.
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Magdalene, you are talking about your religious experience. That's great, but irrelevant for a scholarly debate, nor can it be used as evidence, as people of all religions report on similar experiences.
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caluvox:
9 months ago
@magdalene, while your testimony was beautiful, your statement that Jesus is not just any man, while true, doe's not hold the same implication to a non believer such as myself. I hold his words in the same light as Plato, Socrates, Confucius, Zhu Xi and others, perhaps even less so since Jesus was constrained by his faith and therefore unable to expand on an otherwise great aspect in the philosophy of peace.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
Caluvox, my religious experience fits hand in hand with scripture. And has been a Live experience of exactly what the Bible speaks about. So, even in a scholary debate, I guess one with an open mind, could be given scripture to support my claim and it would confirm my experience in my personal life. But it has been my experience here on Ask, to see that some people do not See the evidence in scripture, therefore, I haven't even attempted to look up all the scripture. His Word is alive and it is experience in the life of a believer and Not in just one believer, such as myself. Testimonies of christians even testify of the Oneness of God and His Truth. So, although I do understand what you are saying, I choose to include my personal testimony often and probably will continue to do so unless the Holy Spirit should prompt me to do otherwise as there may be some people who read the comment section who have need of a Saviour and as they read the continuous debates that always end in the same manner....resulting in still yet, division and at the highest point, confusion....they will also be able to read a testimony of experience of The Living God and His Presence and Saving Ability in their life. It is, afterall, a true need of we humans and the constant debating does not provide that. I do understand what you are saying though, and please excuse me and just pass by my comments if they are of no interest to you. But honestly, as far as I now know, they will continue to appear from time to time here on Ask as they do relate to the subject matter and to the question. I am providing evidence of life experience.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Lior, I know how you feel about James at the Jerusalem council. But you and I agree that modern Jewish thought says Gentiles are only required to keep the Noahide laws. This is what God requires of them, and keeping the mitzvot is not a requirement.
This is very close to the position James comes to eventually. James does not place the mitzvot on Gentile Christians; they do not have to convert, do not have to be circumcized.
Result? It makes the Gentile church different, separated from the Jewish church. It inevitably leads to the gentile church growing quickly, and the Jewish church (after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD), hamstrung. Gentiles don't have to undergo circumcision to believe in Jesus. This leads to a boom for Gentile Christianity, and the virtual end of Jewish Christianity.
Btw, there have been several Jews to claim (or been advertised with) the title of Messiah (or forerunner, or something similar) besides Jesus, and some of them are central to Judaism today (eg Kabbalah and Lubavitcher).
This is very close to the position James comes to eventually. James does not place the mitzvot on Gentile Christians; they do not have to convert, do not have to be circumcized.
Result? It makes the Gentile church different, separated from the Jewish church. It inevitably leads to the gentile church growing quickly, and the Jewish church (after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD), hamstrung. Gentiles don't have to undergo circumcision to believe in Jesus. This leads to a boom for Gentile Christianity, and the virtual end of Jewish Christianity.
Btw, there have been several Jews to claim (or been advertised with) the title of Messiah (or forerunner, or something similar) besides Jesus, and some of them are central to Judaism today (eg Kabbalah and Lubavitcher).
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The problem with this is that the previous Jewish-Christians assimilated into the larger and dominant gentile-Christian church. So the compromise led to people originally Jews who no longer did the mitzvot. It's true that Gentiles are not expected by God to keep the commandments (except for the Noahide law), and I am fine with that. If Paul had preached only the Noahide law to the Gentiles without the rest, I would be having no problem in that whatsoever. But Paul lied to them that they can be the "new Israel" by cherry picking the Commandments he liked or thought important and not too hard, and disregard the rest of God's Law. It doesn't work like this. They should have first accepted the full Law, ie become Jews, and then accept Jesus. As for the other false messiahs, then yes, Jesus wasn't the only one. Yehudah of Galilee came before him, Shabtai Tzvi after him, and there were many others. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is a different case, because he never claimed to be the messiah, only (some of his) followers did. But he died long ago, and the Messiah much be alive. So even Lubavitchers concede he really wasn't the Messiah, although they claim he was a worthy candidate. Except that God hasn't decided yet it's time for the Messiah to arrive. In each generation there is a worthy Messiah to be, and the promise will be realized if God decides the Messiah is to come. Maybe the Lubavitcher Rebbe was that person, maybe he wasn't, but he died, and now there is another righteous person who would be revealed as the Messiah if God so wishes.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. And this answer is not for debate on my part. Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Him alone. Paul and other's wrote in the Bible by God's inspiration as I am aware is spoken of on a regualar basis as you and other's have seen when you comment and answer and ask question. We follow the Bible, the written Word. And although penned by man, it was given by inspiration of God. So whether Paul, or James or any of them penned it, it is God's Word. And Jesus is the Living Word.
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You must remember that there were a great number of books, of Gospels, Epistles and Acts, & that from these the "inspired" ones were selected by "uninspired" men.
Between the "Fathers" there were great differences of opinion as to which books were inspired; much discussion and plenty of hatred. Many of the books now deemed spurious were by many of the "Fathers" regarded as divine, and some now regarded as inspired were believed to be spurious. Many of the early Christians and some of the Fathers" repudiated the gospel of John, the Epistle to the Hebrews, Jude, James, Peter, and the Revelation of St. John. On the other hand, many of them regarded the Gospel of the Hebrews, of the Egyptians, the Preaching of Peter, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabus, the Pastor of Hermas, the Revelation of Peter, the Revelation of Paul, the Epistle of Clement, the Gospel of Nicodemus, inspired books, equal to the very best.
The truth is, Protestants did not agree as to what books are inspired until 1647, by the Assembly of Westminster. Erasmus, one of the leaders of the Reformation, declared that the Epistle to the Hebrews was not written by Paul, and he denied the inspiration of Second and Third John, and also of Revelation. Luther was of the same opinion. He declared James to be an epistle of straw, and denied the inspiration of Revelations. Zwinglius rejected the book of Revelation, and even Calvin denied that Paul was the author of Hebrews.
Between the "Fathers" there were great differences of opinion as to which books were inspired; much discussion and plenty of hatred. Many of the books now deemed spurious were by many of the "Fathers" regarded as divine, and some now regarded as inspired were believed to be spurious. Many of the early Christians and some of the Fathers" repudiated the gospel of John, the Epistle to the Hebrews, Jude, James, Peter, and the Revelation of St. John. On the other hand, many of them regarded the Gospel of the Hebrews, of the Egyptians, the Preaching of Peter, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabus, the Pastor of Hermas, the Revelation of Peter, the Revelation of Paul, the Epistle of Clement, the Gospel of Nicodemus, inspired books, equal to the very best.
The truth is, Protestants did not agree as to what books are inspired until 1647, by the Assembly of Westminster. Erasmus, one of the leaders of the Reformation, declared that the Epistle to the Hebrews was not written by Paul, and he denied the inspiration of Second and Third John, and also of Revelation. Luther was of the same opinion. He declared James to be an epistle of straw, and denied the inspiration of Revelations. Zwinglius rejected the book of Revelation, and even Calvin denied that Paul was the author of Hebrews.
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Pious points out correctly we have not always agreed, each person, on the books of the Bible. But the church as a whole established the canon as early as 350 ad (working from an earlier canon from the time of Eusebius) and it's not been challenged significantly, ever. It is likely that it will always be the canon, as any challenges brought to individual books have already been made and rejected, or accepted (as in the pseudepigrapha). To read more on how the canon was decided, read the wiki on "canon of the Bible."
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2 John 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
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No, we don't question it, we must be obedient and do things Gods way if we want to make it to Heaven (Matthew 7:21-23) but we also must keep things in context. By studying the Bible you'll see that the Old Testament was for the Jews and is not for Christians, but it is for our learning ( Romans 15:4 )
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They all taught Gods/Christs teachings so we follow all of them. All people in the Bible, including Christ, taught what God wanted them to teach soooo....
Thats sort of the POINT if the Bible. Everything in it is God inspired. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Moses, etc all spoke with Gods authorization. There is nothing in the Bible God did not allow. Thevwriters if the gospels havent 'clouded' any issues. They write from different points of view but completely with Gods permission.
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And what about the scribes and copyists who later changed what the original authors wrote?
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@ Lior .. No Christian wants to be converted to "your" belief in a dead Jesus Christ... Accept it
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magdalene:
9 months ago
God's Word is Alive and He has established His Word on the tables of a true Christians heart and in their life. His Spirit is alive and works within us and in our lives when we are Christ's. He has established His Word on the earth and in the Heavens and He is from everlasting to everlasting. He will not let us be deceived when we ask and He is able to keep us from ultimately falling. He is the author and finisher of our faith, through Jesus.
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magdalene:
9 months ago
thespang, That is exactly correct. (meaning your comment above)
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
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Last edited at 6:59AM on 8/3/2012
Caluvox, the question has a bit of discussion to arrive at a rule for practice. It's an excellent question.
1. Jews accept the Torah as binding, and the rest of the Old Testament as commentary on the Torah (of course, inspired commentary). It is binding on Jews, and the instruction from Jesus is variously ignored, discounted or admitted as good ethical instruction, depending on the rabbi, but the New Testament is otherwise ignored by Jews.
Jews were the first Christians. It was considered a Jewish sect, like pharisees or essenes, at first. But when the drive to accept Gentiles into the faith happened in the first few decades after Christ's death, the church had several meetings to decide if all the Torah is binding on Gentiles. There was much dispute over this, but the end result was the decision that Gentiles are not bound to the Old Testament portion of the law. Certain restrictions were laid on Christians' behavior for the purposes of good order and discipline, but the Jewish Christians never lost their devotion to the Torah and the rules therein. They just did not impose them on Gentiles. This is reflected in Christians today, who accept instruction from the Old Testament (Tanach) but don't obey all the instructions of the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible). They do not obey them because they did not bind themselves to them as did Jews at Sinai.
2. Christians in general accept the instructions of Jesus as binding. There are over 1400 instructions in the New Testament, some of them stricter than those found in the Old. The instructions of Jesus are not considered different in force from those of Paul or John or Peter or other books of the New Testament. They are however more "visible" because of the speaker: we keep our eyeballs peeled for his exact words.
I hope this helps clarify the issue as you asked!
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caluvox:
9 months ago
@shiny, thank you! It helped, but I sometimes wonder if the message has not been watered down or in some case's changed completely in order to promote a different agenda. I've been involved in debates where the person will claim to use the words of Jesus and then when I ask for source's I'm referred to Matthew, Paul, Luke etc. etc. and the quotes end up being interpretations of the meaning of the words of Jesus. It makes an already difficult subject that much more difficult,
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
As you say, Jesus had some harsh instructions, some of which are not followed --and for very good reason: we might all be walking around missing eyes and hands. The point he is making is a tough one: keeping the law is HARD, so we all come to the conclusion that something more than law is required. This is where God's love comes in.
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I use a similar technique in counseling called paradoxical intent. If a person is say smoking, and wants to stop, I tell him to smoke. I tell him to smoke every hour on the hour, and report back to see if he has done his homework.
My intent is to help him gain control over his otherwise uncontrolled situation; often, I get the report back that he beat me by not cooperating with my ridiculous instruction, what was I thinking, and oh by the way I smoked less this week. Success!
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Paradoxical intent. It's possible some of the ethical instructions are such, or perhaps He just intended to show us that by the works of the flesh shall no man be saved. I can make a rabbi's choice out of either.
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I use a similar technique in counseling called paradoxical intent. If a person is say smoking, and wants to stop, I tell him to smoke. I tell him to smoke every hour on the hour, and report back to see if he has done his homework.
My intent is to help him gain control over his otherwise uncontrolled situation; often, I get the report back that he beat me by not cooperating with my ridiculous instruction, what was I thinking, and oh by the way I smoked less this week. Success!
.
Paradoxical intent. It's possible some of the ethical instructions are such, or perhaps He just intended to show us that by the works of the flesh shall no man be saved. I can make a rabbi's choice out of either.
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No. They follow only those that suites them & as Paul & co. thought best for them.
As for inspiration logic, even if the existence of God is admitted, how are we to prove that he inspired the writers of the books of Bible? Did God use men as instruments? Did he cause them to write his thoughts? Did he take possession of their minds and destroy their wills?
Next comes the doubt, how are we to separate the mistakes of man from the thoughts of God? Can we do this without being inspired ourselves? If the original writers were inspired, then the translators should have been, and so should be the men who tell us what the Bible means.
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If you read the bible then you can see, God speaks through man (and women) something you can experience yourself when seeking Him and the truth of His words. The idea is that every person read the bible for themselves, don't take someone else's words on what it means though there are good teachers out there. Ask God to reveal His words to you. As you seek Him, He will open your eyes and give you understanding :)
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
The mechanics of inspiration are unknown. The definition says God superintended so that what he wanted got in, and what he didn't want was excluded. Product, not process.
Jesus evidently believes in it, because he says that not one yod or tittle will disappear until all is fulfilled. The yod is the smallest Hebrew letter. The tittle is a vowel pointing. Evidently Jesus is not only believing in the verbal inspiration of the Bible, but the actual letters.
The mechanics of many things are not known.
For example, when you pick out a can of green beans from the grocery, why do you pick that one. Not just the brand, or the size-- that ONE? There are many like it... So why that one. Because you wanted it? Because it looked good, or was closest on the shelf, or there was a sale tag?
You may know. But it's process, not product; you don't discuss why you bought the can, you just bring it home.
Jesus evidently believes in it, because he says that not one yod or tittle will disappear until all is fulfilled. The yod is the smallest Hebrew letter. The tittle is a vowel pointing. Evidently Jesus is not only believing in the verbal inspiration of the Bible, but the actual letters.
The mechanics of many things are not known.
For example, when you pick out a can of green beans from the grocery, why do you pick that one. Not just the brand, or the size-- that ONE? There are many like it... So why that one. Because you wanted it? Because it looked good, or was closest on the shelf, or there was a sale tag?
You may know. But it's process, not product; you don't discuss why you bought the can, you just bring it home.
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The difference being, the can of beans won't attempt to decide my eternity, while the bible claims to do so!!
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Jenni18:
9 months ago
I agree w/ shinypate. The Bible books reflect the individual authors own unique styles, (I believe Luke the physician referred to things from a medical perspective on occasion) but God did not allow them to deviate from his intentions. We can't exactly understand how God does things. But just because we aren't all-knowing doesn't mean we have to reject it. Man isn't all-knowing but Atheists seem to have no problem accepting conjectures put forward by mere humans. Jer. 10:23.
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pious666:
9 months ago
I would rather that you learn about atheists better. Atheists say they do not know. The only difference is that they just do not believe in your words or in words of authority. Because they came to know at least this much that he who doesn't do his own thinking is a slave.
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strawberrygirl:
9 months ago
"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." 2 Timothy 3:16
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shinypate1:
9 months ago
via iPhone
Yep! My comment to Pious is much longer yet in the same vein.
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