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Does god exists or we created him?

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TheHarem

The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'" (John 20:29).

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A star if there ever was one. God bless. :)
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TheHarem
Wiserrt.......thankyou so much. You are so kind. :)
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What is to stop me from writing a book that says "You must believe in the giant unicorn, or you will be damned by him"?
Just because I put something of this nature, in a book, does not mean you should follow it so blindly.
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TheHarem
Is that the best you can do? Lol
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You say as if it is invalid. Just because I had to try very little to pose a challenge to your belief, you insult. Let's not forget, you did not counter this argument.
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He exists mate.

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Oh, really?
What evidence do you have to present?
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if he didn't, we wouldn't even exist yo, he created us that thing about evolotion is nothing but bullshit.
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The Big Bang theory is now scientific fact. We're still here without god.
Evolution is also proven. You claiming that something proven is less believable than a book written by an inferior culture, is bullshit.
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Depends what you believe. Some people say, without a doubt he exists. While other people say, there's no proof he exists, so he doesn't. It's all based on faith. Me personally, I believe someone has to have made all this, it can't be a coincidence. Now do I believe in the God that is depicted in the bible? One who supposedly loves unconditionally, but will send a person to hell for being Gay? Heck no. What do you believe jhonyolo?

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Again, thoughtful comment, I totally agree with you. Must be on the same wavelength tonight.
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Yes we must HaiMai :)
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Yes, God exists.

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Give me some evidence.
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Well if God isn't real, then there sure is a bigger problem as to how humans can invent God. If we invented God then we would necessarily have invented something from nothing. This seems humanly impossible since anything we have ever invented always comes from something we already have some knowledge of. We have never been able to show that we are able to invent from "thin air". God necessarily (at least as revealed by the bible) is from nothing and is irreducible....there is no way for us to "invent" such a "god".

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TheHarem
Great answer. :)
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Thanks
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TheHarem
You're quite welcome. How is everything with you?
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It kind of sounds like your suggesting that all gods have truth to them since it's not possible for us to just use our imagination and make up a god.
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Harem, I'm doin' good. Times are tight and challenging however! I'm very grateful for my family and friends....and for the people I can interact with in a positive and constructive way here on Ask. Be blessed my friend :)
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Lepp my man! How are u!?
Yes, it's basically the same thing I've tried pointing out in the past...just to a new person. There are certainly things we can "invent" or "create" about god(s) from our experiences, human traits, nature, etc., but the universal and absolute/ultimate element has no other parallel then itself....other then the revealed "God". Something that seems impossible to humanly fabricate, only humanly innate known (as being created beings). You probably weren't asking for another ear load of that!! Lol
Btw, I see you have your two Swedish "gods" as your avatar...very nice ;)
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TheHarem
Dk.......you are always such a pleasure. You also have such an amazing mind which I've always admired. God Bless you. :)
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Hey, I'm the still hangin in there. I accidentally signed out of my other profile, Littllepp, and I can't sign back in because I used a fake email for that account and I forgot what it was so I had to make a new account. Anyway, yea it kinda sounded like that was what you were saying. But I can't really see how all these god's have truths to them because that would mean that all of these religions could possibly be true but that can't be possible if their beliefs and gods are very different. Ex. It wouldn't make sense if the aberhamic god was true while the Vishnu was also true. And I think it would be possible for religions to copy ideas from each other. Like if one monotheistic religion took from another monotheistic religion that already existed. So that would actually have a sort of template to copy off of instead of coming up with it out of "nothing". And yes my profile pic is of the folk queens I am in love with haha. It's the picture I took of them when I saw them. Although I haven't listened to them in a couple weeks. I need to do that. I've been listening o another artist a lot lately.
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Star dk. Great answer.
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So I guess you believe in unicorns and leprechauns, then, since man can't create something from nothing?

Men invent from thin air all the time. We have this little thing called "imagination".

Men invented gods to explain things in nature that they could not at the time, like lightning.
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ImRightOne
Man created God, just like he created all gods in all religions in all societies throughout time. Before Moses, man believed in gods. Greek gods, Roman gods, Aztec gods, African gods, Norse gods, Indian gods, Hindu gods. So many more. Man created the idea of a god-like being to answer the "why's" he didn't have the answers to. We created belief systems about what happens after we die, built pyramids and complex rituals to exist in an afterlife because we are afraid of the unknown of death.

If you could know all of man's history since the first one thought, "I wonder what those lights are in the night sky", you'd see the pattern of all men to create something from nothing - from imagination. Bigfoot, werewolves, vampires, crop circles, frisbees that are deemed flying saucers, psychics, ghosts, Santa Claus. WE LOVE MAKING THINGS UP! Religions and gods are no different.

People are brainwashed form when they are born to believe and accept without question the religion of their parents. no freedom to choose or question or change. Children are forced to believe by everyone around them. It is no surprise that people believe in gods and religions and what happsn after death. They are MADE to believe. They have no choice.

So keep spouting what you were forced to believe since your first breath - that the Christian God is real and created everything and the Bible is fact. It's not like you have the choice to use common sense or reasoning, to question those religious doctrines and stories that don't really make sense. When you don't have the answers, make them up.

That's what people do.
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Imright,
Indeed there are thousands of intuitions of God, probably as many "versions" as our minds could think of. In fact those that join AA can imagine a door knob to be their god (higher power) if they feel it to be valid. The reality is that if God is real then He necessarily would have been before there was even a twinkling in any human's mind or any recognizable religion ever showed itself on the face of history. So, all the human intuitions of God need not be seen as an invention (regardless of how scary a volcano or lighting was to whoever), but can just as easily be seen as a rational reflection of the transcendent God reality. You have no more evidence that we invented God then the interpretation that I have that it's the other way around. Sociology observes that religion (the non-secular variety) is a human universal. Superstition alone can't account for this universal. Fear about nature and the empirically unknown explains only the superficial elements of the universal religious experience. That doesn't explain why it remains a thoroughly human universal phenomenon. Upbringing (especially today in the "information age") alone certainly can't explain it...no one can be forced to truly believe something they don't...many change and "rebel" against what they were supposedly "brainwashed" to believe. The creative element to the human mind is indeed rich, but to say it alone is the source of the notion of God only begs the question as to where did our imaginations come from...surely our own self didn't create it's own imagination. Besides that, the notion of God being the absolute/ultimate source of the universe/multiverse(?) transcends the anthropomorphic "versions" of God. The human mind has no reference to create such a notion from other then the notion itself. So either humans are actual creators out of nothing material (equivalent to God) or we have an ultimate intuition of the reality of God because there is God. If the latter is not true, then please explain how we can have knowledge of the irreducible, absolute non-contingent source of what is real when literally everything else our minds creatively imagine does so from something known?
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Skeptikitten,
Well to begin with unicorns or leprechauns have no claim on me in any meaningful way other then a faint expression of transcendent mystery. Secondly, they have virtually no resemblance to the God I seek and believe in. They are in short: irrelevant (existentially speaking)....along with any other imagined entity that is creatively extrapolated from empirically perceivable things (e.g. magic tea pots in space or a flying pasta monster, on and on). Notice that all such examples are not only NOT God, but are based upon empirical perceptions. For example, a unicorn: an imagination extrapolated from a horse and a single horn, "creatively" assembled into something we presume to most unlikely to exist. This analysis can be done with all such examples. The One element that is universal to such mythical examples are that of irreducible transcendence...this is the ONLY aspect that actually relates to God in a fundamental sense. This is the aspect that human minds in and of themselves have no reference for in the empirically perceived world. How can we have knowledge of such a notion unless it is ultimately true? I mean, everything else we imaginatively assemble are found to be known, so why not the element of Devine? I'm not claiming to prove anything here, but only to show that it is reasonable to allow an interpretation that there is a knowledge that God is real (there are of course other reasons that i believe in God, but the question was wether or not humans created God). We consistently can't create anything unless it already is rooted in reality. If we could, then literally We are God.
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This is the most spurious argument I've ever heard. You realize there are literally dozens of refutations of the teleological argument, yes?
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Lepp,
Yes, I agree. It becomes logically absurd to infer that all religions overtly present the same god(s). To frame it in proper perspective would be to say the following: if God (the ultimate creator/source and absolute) is real then that being is/was/will-be real regardless of whatever religious "versions" there are of God. Another way to say it is that God necessarily pre-exists ALL religion (from the exclusively human vantage point). In this way various religions, the transcendent elements or art, music, poetry, mythology all at some universal level reflect this One True God. Now, from there one can then rationally and metaphysically/existentially compare and sift what all these human traditions indicate about God. It really doesn't matter to me "who" is right in regards to God, but rather God must necessarily be right. As I see what the bible (and to SOME extent other traditions) reveals about God (in the most ultimate irreducible sense, not it's "humanized" expressions of "Him"), I see something that is universal and impossible for the human imagination to create on it's own. This reality is expressed by the biblical name of God: YHWH which mean "I Am". It would be like trying to define the word "is" with out invoking the very word "is" itself! Lol. This is also the case with God (YHWY) :"I Am" or also "the self Existent One". This in no way should render God unreal or contradicted by the fact of many, many more or less true versions of Him. It certainly can't be a reality we can create. My point to all these kinds of comments isn't to peddle a religion or sound smart (or stupid! Lol) or win arguments. It's really just to encourage people like yourself that you in no way have your brain surgically removed to have honest belief in God. Ha ha ;)
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Skeptikitten,
Sure, If I claim it to be a "proof". Fundamentally the same can be said of the cute examples of unicorns being compared to God. My question as to how we can "invent" or "create" the absolute YHWH out of nothing without it implying that we are inadvertently equal to God or that God conceivably is real remains unanswered.
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Again, it's called imagination. People invent all sorts of ludicrous things all the time. And gods were originally conceived as very like humans, just more powerful- anthropomorphic beings with all our emotions and foibles. Jehovah was originally just the sky god of the Canaanite pantheon. Like a game of telephone, the idea of gods evolved from human-like to more over the centuries.
You provide no evidence that your god couldn't be conceived of by the human imagination- you just say it can't then expect us to believe it. It's called a Bare Assertion fallacy.
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Ok you kinda lost me on the art, music, poetry being related to the alleged one true god. But from what I understand about what you're saying is that all things imagined are in some way related to things in reality and these things must be apart of reality before we imagine them. I will just restate basically what I said a few months ago. Elements (not all) of imagined beings can be real but when you put them together into one character that's when it becomes unreal and imagined. Ex. Fire, flying, wings, and strength are all real things but a man with wings who can fly, has infinite strength, and can shoot fire out his finger tips is impossible and obviously not real.
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It seems like you are underestimating to human imagination or possibly over thinking it too much.
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Skeptikitten,
Restating that it's imagination doesn't seem to me to answer my question (I won't bother quoting fallacies). It doesn't account for the origin of it (besides "mind" which merely leads to where does the mind originate and so on.) nor how it's possible that our imaginations always draw upon something perceivably real with everything but the one inexplicable notion of an absolute source (why must there be an exception in that case?). The question I ask u proves nothing, but rather shows that there is a rational thought process that "supports" belief in God.

Your progressive "telephone" analogy is fine, but it presupposes that there is at least some unbroken chain of "telephone calls" by which the next culture (or the one on the other side of the world that is unaware of the other culture) gets the deluded original message. It certainly isn't the only plausible interpretation of what we know of the history or religion. It merely reflects the presupposition that some invented "god" idea(s) got thrown around and mixed together. No presupposition proves/disproves anything. Furthermore the theory that analogy suggests is less believable to me when there are other interpretations of the historical data regarding the nature of accounting for religion that don't necessarily require disbelief in the realness of God.

Btw, there is no necessary fallacy since I claim nothing other than an inductive mode of reasoning from a possible premise of God being real which i hold to be true based upon a manifold of other reasons (which I have not as of yet expressed). Of course somewhere along the line i commit circular reasoning. That need not mean my God is unreal, but only that that i have a presupposition of one sort or another. Upon any analysis, ALL asserted claims humans make inevitably commit circular reasoning. The "lack of evidence" need not demand that something isn't true, not to mention that what one defines as "lack" may simply be a matter of a different perspective as to what constitutes as evidence in the first place. Furthermore my question does not specifically mean my insinuation must be true, but rather is merely a question that you may or may not have an answer for. ;)
I'll check back tomorrow.
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everything about this world is created by a lie so no...

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There is no evidence and just the idea of god, especially in christianity, is laughable so no.

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....I'm not laughing. He he he ;)
I left u a response under me.
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TheHarem
Littllepp ??? OK, now I'm confused. Lol What else is new! So, I'm used to recognizing you and knowing you as Littllepp. Will that account not be used? I need to know so I don't miss you. Will this other profile be the one your going to use?
Oh, woes me.....I'm so confused. Chuckle
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Yes this is the account I will be using from now on. I can't use my old account because I can't sign in. I figured the "lepp" part would seem recognizable ha.
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Left u a response if u have time to read. :)
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TheHarem
Lepp.......ok, I got it. Lol
Thanks :)
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Sorry, been very busy...still am ;)
My thread got pretty full so I'll respond briefly here.
Basically, everything we ever create (materially or conceptually) always comes from something. I.e. something real. I have never been able to think of an exception to this. This does not "prove" God (which I never claim to be capable of, nor does God require "proof" to be real), but simply is a rational approach to "thinking" about God. It's an example that it is reasonable to consider that God is real. It may seem like I keep using this "argument" like it's the only reason a person has to believe! Lol, but there are others. It just fits with the question posted.
Hey, do ever listen to Mumford & Sons?
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Ok. No point debating it anymore. Twice is enough and we'll just go around in circles lol. Yes I've heard Mumford & sons. I only listen to them on pandora though. I like em'. Not too much I can say about them though because I haven't heard a whole lot. I've been listening a lot of Iron & Wine lately. They're very soothing and relaxing. His whispering vocals always make me fall asleep haha.
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Sure, and maybe another time I can talk about the "art, music, poetry, mythology" stuff since I never explained my reference to them.
Hummm, "iron & wine"...never heard of them. I'll check them out some time. Latter dude!
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The answer is whatever you believe.

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God, or the idea of god, is a psychological phenomenon, not a physical one. An honest God is the Noblest Creation of Man.

Each nation has created a god, and that's why you will see that the gods has always resembled his creators. These gods have been manufactured after numberless models, and according to the most grotesque fashions. He hated and loved what they hated and loved, and he was invariably found on the side of those in power. Each god was intensely patriotic, and detested all nations but his own. All these gods demanded praise, flattery, and worship. Most of them were pleased with sacrifice, and the smell of innocent blood has ever been considered a divine perfume. All these gods have insisted upon having a vast number of priests, and the priests have always insisted upon being supported by the people, and the principal business of these priests has been to boast about their god, and to insist that he could easily vanquish all the other gods put together.

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TheHarem
Hello to my very favorite Atheist. Hope you are doing great! Nice to see ya. :)
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spring_0

The truth is that coincidences really do exist ...
I study science and I strongly believe in science .. Science gives you facts but the truth is that there is no real answer just like religions...
Ur question it's smth we will never know ,the truth ,earth it's so old we have been here for freaking scary really many many years .. and that's why it's so hard to answer questions about life or "god"..
Maybe us humans cannot think beyond our intelligence maybe we are not smart enough to understand the truth.. and because of these we have to trust things we have been seen with our own eyes ( that's the reason why there are so many atheist out there ..)

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God is a self-evident truth. God says, "the heavens declare the glory of God", that is, they make Him known. He also invites us to "lift our eyes and look to the heavens" and ask "who created all these?" The Creator, God, by His great power. Great power, yet merciful enough to whisper in our conscience that He is there. To top it off, God came to earth and lived here and was shown to be divine by "many convincing proofs." That would be Jesus the Christ, who has other names prophesied about Him hundreds of years earlier--Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of peace. You can read about Him in the Gospel of John in the Bible.

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Gospel of John is the gospel of GAPS. That gospel is all through an imposition and severely interpolated with numerous wishful thinkings and all these are self-evident in itself to reject it.
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Perhaps it is written in code? lol
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Don't forget that the Gospel of John is considered the LEAST likely to have any historical merit by scholars. It's why it isn't included as one of the "synoptic" gospels- it is also the latest written. The Gospels are a clear game of telephone; they start out pretty simple with Mark and the story gets bigger and bigger as you go along, the fisherman expanding his tale to go from a foot long salmon to a monster thiiiiiiiiiiis big.
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Interesting opinion....needs more facts, not faith in your game theories.
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The fact is that you have no contemporary historical evidence that Jesus even existed. Even theologians admit that John is the least likely to be historical, even with the already low chance of accurate historicity in the Gospels.

You have no historical facts to back up a single event of Jesus' life, including his existence, that appears in the Gospels. You make the claims- you have the Burden of Proof.
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Been done. Nothing secret about the evidence. You want proof? Why is the science of textual criticism nor enough? Or archaeological evidence? Or the manuscript evidence?
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Archaeological evidence says that the earth existed for billions of years, while bible would have us believe that the earth was created merely 6000+ years ago!! So much for archaeological evidence!!

There is not even one manuscript preserved anywhere on earth on Hebrew in which language Jesus and his companions spoke. All the so called manuscript of the gospels the church has are the Greek, all of which has been proved to be false, imposed or interpolated. So much for manuscript evidence!!

There are abundant textual criticisms that have shown that the man Jesus never existed. So much for textual evidence!!
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There is no archaeological evidence or contemporary historical evidence that Jesus existed. I don't think you get how the Burden of Proof works.

The Romans were arguably the best record keepers of all time- never mentioned Jesus. The Jewish scholars of the time never mentioned him. There were literally DOZENS of historians and scholars and and around Jerusalem when the events in question supposedly happened- not a peep about Jesus, though several other claimed Messiahs were mentioned. "Jesus" and his "story" (which is a near identical copy of the Mithras legend of the Zoroastrian faith, which is centuries older) never appeared until decades later, written as third-hand accounts by people who were never there. The two most common cites by Christians are Josephus (proven to be fraudulent by the Church itself- they never actually believed the Testimonium Flavinium was accurate but instead an insertion by Eusebius in the fourth century and not contemporary in the first place), and Tacitus (again, not contemporary, only mentioned what Christians BELIEVED not what HAPPENED, and he even goes on to say that the Christian beliefs are basically nonsense), neither of which makes your case.

So until you actually prove he existed, the claim can be discarded as without merit.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but archaeology is one of the best proofs of the Bible's reliability. Simply stating you don't believe it does not change anything. The more you two ramble abou your faith, the more you show you have not done an investigation. You mix subjects; you show you do not even know what archaeology is--lol. Go ahead. Be my guest; it makes Christian apologetics easy and amusing at the same time. It is not my job to educate you or correct every false assumption and logical fallacy. But you know where to find answers if you had followed my answers for very long. After all, you claim to know every answer I have ever given when you make the irrational claim that I "never" speak objectively.
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last chance; www.equip.org

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That is not a scientific or archaeological source. Don't you have any ACTUAL evidence?

We don't HAVE faith- you do. You provide ZERO evidence to back up your claims, you simply try to shift the Burden of Proof. It's a little sad. If that's the best apologetics has, Christianity is doomed.
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As suspected you have the most closed-minded attitude I have ever run into in nearly 60 years. I am wiping the dust from my feet; but know that the kingdom of God has come to you.
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Richest,
Thanks for an encouraging answer to the poster :)
It's sad that some insist on "kicking against the goad" and are all the while seemingly unaware of their own faith in godless assumptions. Assumptions that require faith since they too put forth not absolute knowledge, but simply knowledge that is predicated on doubt. Sigh....
Peace & Love
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Again- post a real source and not a biased organization made for evangelism and we'll talk.

Learn what a valid source is in scholarship and you'd not be such a sad apologist.
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Humans created gods to explain things in nature that they could not understand.

To primitive man, lightning seemed magical, and they reasoned it must be the work of gods. Today we know better.

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Science can't tell us we know "better", only that we know "different" as in we know empirically. We presume (I certainly do) that empirical perception based knowledge is valid. This logically speaking does nothing to negate the universal "spiritual" experience of religion. If it does, please demonstrate via science and logic how it does.
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ImRightOne

Man created all religions and all gods. We do it over and over again. That's why so many cultures have their own religions and beliefs and rituals and gods and temples. There never have been gods. Do you believe in the Egyptian sun god Ra?All Egyptians did a long time ago. If you disputed Ra's existence, they'd cut off your head. No one believes it today. Why? Because it is stupid. And their religion got replaced.

Man replaces all gods and religions over time. These come and go; they all have a shelf life. Many people today will argue their god is the REAL god. For now they are right. Later, it will be discarded. Then we'll have a new god! It's what humans do. We get bored easily. How many people are Mormon or Scientologists? Recently developed, these two religions have some really stupid aspects. But there are people who swear by them. it is easy to make a religion because people need to follow something. Out of fear, out of cusriosity, from lack of knowledge of the universe or what happens to us when we die, people will always fill in the "I don't know's" with some imaginary concepts.

That's what people do.

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The FSM is as real as you and me. I know because I have faith and read it on a website that claims to tell the truth about the universe and in turn MUST have been divinely inspired by the real one true word of god, the flying spaghetti monster.

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Sorry to inform u, I ate the FSM last night for dinner. It's wasn't easy, I first had blow it out of the air with my shotgun. Tasted delicious minus the lead pellets! Lol ;)
I'm sure that u are plenty sharp enough to know that the FSM is not the same as the One True God (who necessarily isn't "made" of empirical things like pasta...that wouldn't be God then).
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He is transcendental pasta- you ate an imposter
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Dang it!!....I'm sure I'll no the real pasta when taste it. Lol
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