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sharkdart

Why do some people take the bible for proof that a God exists?

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For the same reason people take Harry Potter as proof that Hogwarts exists, and some people believe that the Matrix is real after seeing the movie. The human mind reaches for a way to make sense of humanities insignificance in the grand scheme. Any proof is good enough to justify it, when you can offer up faith as the reason there isn't more proof.

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Victoria698
Weird, I'm watching Harry potter right now
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Fair warning... Don't try to run through the brick wall at the train station... Hurts like H311.
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Victoria698
xD
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What else do they have? If it hasn't been written, than it never happened.

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Victoria698

It almost does, but the thing is you have to BELIEVE god is real. Believing means knowing something is real without proof.

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sharkdart
With that logic I could believe in dragons and that means they are real.
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Feel free to do that.
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Victoria698
Go ahead. Dragons are cool.
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Close. So close. But no. Believing means convincing oneself that one doesn't need proof.
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There is no reason or logic in what you are saying. Because you psych yourself up to believe something is real because it suits you, how does that make it real?
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BoxingTally

They just never thought about it, I think. That is the way it has been since they were small children, the Bible was sacred. They have never thought about who wrote it or where it came from.

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sometimes because of wanting to be God, meaning, they are confused.

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2nd Timothy 3:16-17 says it is inspired by God. Written by over 40 authors over 1600 years. It was the first book to be printed on the printing press in 1455. We still have over 5300 Greek manuscripts from the New Testament.
The Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947
Have copies of the oldest portions in the Old Testament. They are 95%
accurate.
Mostly : no one has ever been able to destroy it & Hitler tried with all his might but failed.

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GREAT answer! 2nd. Timothy 3:16 and 17 are 2 of my favorite scriptures. my favorite, is the very first; "in the beginning, God..." if you can believe this (and i do), all the rest will come to you!!!"...:-)
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Thanks so much
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sharkdart
Just because it says it was inspired by god doesn't make it true.
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good answer bettyeckles!
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Sharkdart : were you there for the big bang or whatever ? Or did you read about it ? How do you know your facts are true ?
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So the bible is true because it is the holy word of god, and it's the holy word of god because it says so in the bible?! That's circular reasoning! Think about it!!!!
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Jjjj I did think about it & am happy with my decision.
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TheHarem
Chuckle.......great answer. Have a Happy New Year. Hard to believe it's almost arrived. :)
*******
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Hitler was Christian. He did not attempt to destroy the bible.
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Anyone who kills 6 million people is not a christian. He claimed to be one but was really satan in man. He wanted total power & he did burn Bibles.
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He did not burn bibles. Anyway, you are making use of the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. Who are you to differentiate between Christians and non Christians?
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JamesKaeberle

Because it was written by men inspired by God. And the Holy Spirit leads us to know that it is true. The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truths.

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Oops. You forgot to capitalize that T.
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TheHarem
Oops. I don't think the "t" has to be capitalized, my friend. :)
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TheHarem
Hi James......wonderful words, as always. Have a great New Years holiday. God Bless you. :)
*******
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JamesKaeberle
You to TheHarem. God Bless!
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TheHarem
Thankyou so much. :)
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TheHarem


That the Bible originated in the mind of God makes it not only unique among all books, it is unique among all the treasures on earth. President Abraham Lincoln appropriately referred to the Bible as "the best gift God has given to man." Indeed it is. It reveals God's eternal plan of redeeming the fallen human race.
Many religious texts claim to convey a divine message. The Bible, however, stands alone in that God left absolutely no room for doubt as to whether or not this is His written Word. If anyone undertakes an honest effort to examine the facts, he will find the Bible most assuredly has God's signature all through it. The very same mouth that spoke all of creation into existence also gave us the Bible.
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2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

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Hi Harem.. Hope you have a wonderful New Year.
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JamesKaeberle
Hi! to both of you. God Bless!
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Why doesn't the Bible try to be scientifically accurate? Why isn't its usefulness a measure of its divinity? Why must every single claim it makes be so laughably false?
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TheHarem
Hi Betty...I will. You too have a wonderful New Years Holiday. :)
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TheHarem
Hi James. Nice to see you this evening. God Bless you. :)
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TheHarem
Noveltman.......just a thought...
One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God's Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words which God moved men to record.
Another of the internal evidences that indicates the Bible is truly God's Word is the prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, certain cities, and mankind. Other prophecies concern the coming of One who would be the Messiah, the Savior of all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those by men such as Nostradamus, biblical prophecies are extremely detailed. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and His lineage, but also how He would die and that He would rise again. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible contains.
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TheHarem

Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim to be the very Word of God.
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JamesKaeberle
Amen ans Amen!
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I won't lie. There are times when I wish I could believe as you do. It would be so much simpler, and I'd have given up any search for real answers, so the feeling that my curiosity had been satisfied would probably be easier to find too. I could provide you with a list of thousands of contradictions, but for some reason they wouldn't matter to you. I don't know why. You probably know all the arguments against God's existence, yet you still believe. I don't know why. I do not you're not a simpleton. You seem very intelligent. So parts of this life are mysteries. I guess.
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TheHarem
Noveltman........I've come to "know" you well enough over time, to know not to "preach" to you. I wish in my deepest heart, that you could find a reason to believe. Maybe some day you may. I can't help it, that is my wish for you. Whatever your beliefs are, or anybody else's, the bottom line is we are all God's children in my eyes. I love you as a fellow human just the same, whatever your beliefs are. I also understand why you ask your questions, and I take no offense whatsoever. Big Hug! :)
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Noveltman: and that's why I refuse to sneer. There are times I get you, and that last was one I get.
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There is no proof of his non-existence. The Bible points to several proofs, including the stars of the heavens, fulfilled prophecy, and the miracles of the Exodus. However, they are not proof but logical indications; the facts do not speak for themselves, as faith in God first starts only with someone who believes that God exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. By way of analogy, you can only get to New York if you first believe it exists, and can be visited by someone who wishes to visit.

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But there is sufficient evidence of NY. People have been there for 400 years. Not the best parallel.
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It works. Leaden but works. All analogies break down if you want them to.
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Shiny : great answer
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Z: were you there for the big bang or did you read about it ?
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There's also no proof of the non existence of invisible aliens that live in our skulls and feed on the electrical impulses produced by out brains. Of course you don't believe in those, do you?
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Jjjj no I dont
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Jjjj, reality is observed and is refractive of modeling; any model of reality is not reality. It does not make the model wrong, just limited.
One of the skills of the human species is the ability to think in abstract terms, juggling ideas that help us understand and work with the real world. This is in some ways essential as the world is too complex for us to understand in infinite detail.
We naturally build inner mental models as a way of coping with this outer complexity. We then view the world through the models, treating the model as if it is the world, not just a representation. In this sense, it could be said that everything is a reification.
Where the reification fallacy occurs in an important sense is where the assumption of idea as reality is too far from a better truth. In business, for example, many models are used to understand and describe business situations. When the models are taken too literally, people can end up depending on them and making blind decisions rather than using the models to give one viewpoint that may be considered alongside other evidence.
Reification may be deliberately used in the use of metaphor and other figures of speech. It becomes a fallacy when we forget that the representation is just that: a representation, and not reality. Extended metaphors can easily fail in this way.
Reality is consensually validated. If you see a yeti and I do not, you will doubt your experience, as will I. A commonly held communal experience can be a delusion or a real experience; context is important to determine if it's real, or has alternate explanations. But historical truth is not rational nor logical; it is refractive from the tests of logic. It is validated through testimony and various other tests, and lately the science of forensics has added to the probabilities of an occurrence; however, even forensics cannot provide certainty.
You can say "it's illogical for someone to shoot schoolkids" and this would be true; nevertheless it happened.
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TheHarem
Shiny.......there's only one word for you........AMAZING! :)
********
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The burden of proof lies on you. You have to prove your sky fairy's existence. There is proof of the Big Bang outside of textbooks, Betty.
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I have no burden of proof, any more
than it is my job to prove to you that Debbie McComner exists. I know her, and if you do not, that does not mean I am obligated to prove her to you. If you wish to know her, make your own introduction. Deny her existence, or not-- I don't care. The burden is on the seeker.
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Besides, the scoffer will never be satisfied by proof. This is why Jesus said, "if someone comes back from the dead, they will not believe." Lots of people have read about the Big Bang, yet there are still scoffers. You have chosen as you will-- and as such, it is your choice to live with.
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No, the burden is on the claimant. That's you- we're neither claiming nor seeking.
Also, did you miss the part in basic logic where you can't prove universal no existence of anything? You can't prove unicorns don't exist but I bet you don't believe in them.

And Exodus? Considering there isn't any support for the bible's claims on that score and in fact historical evidence says the opposite that's a poor example.
So is your analogy about Debbie. A person named Debbie is not an extraordinary metaphysical claim that you say everyone must believe or be tortured forever. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You say much, but base most of your arguments on logical fallacies.
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That was a terrible attempt to switch the burden of proof. Not a good way to start off an answer either.
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The fact that there are some things in the bible that are true doesn't make the entire thing valid proof. If you get 5 questions correct on 100 question test then you don't get an A+ because a few are correct. Also, if you have believe in god first in order to see it as proof, that doesn't mean what you're hearing or reading is proof. Anyone can say you must believe first about anything an if someone already believes that the abrahamic of exists then they will almost always be biased to anything that someone presents as proof. Especially the ones that think that trees and clouds are proof of the abrahamic god.
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And the New York analogy doesn't really work because you're using an New York, which is undoubtedly real, to represent the "proof" that you believe that god exists. Whether you believe New York exists or not, I you happen to wind up in times square then you cannot deny the obvious. No one stands in the middle of times square and says to themselves "New York doesn't exist because I don't believe in it".
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Skep, I can't even get you to read a book. I would not even try to assume the burden of proof for you, it's your journey, not mine, and you are loath to do any work. I have already made the journey, and it is not a journey you wish to make. Horse, water, etc.
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Let's assume a place you neither know exists or not: my name is Marco Polo, and I have been to Hungdow. I bring nothing to prove, except the tales of my journey. You are free to be skeptical, it is your prerogative. You may not be sure; you doubt such a place exists, but i seem convincing. So, you look for consistency of story, details that ring true.
However, I do not worry over the burden of proof; if you do not wish to be convinced, you will not be. Personally it is of almost supreme indifference to me what you believe, as I am only responsible for my own journey. You shoulder your own journey.
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Re: standards of proof:
Proof in court of law is adduced through testimony. Eyewitness testimony, typically. The kind of proof you seem to set as a standard (some scientific standard, I suspect) would not work in most cases where a verdict can be had. You take testimony, then evaluate the truthfulness of the witness. You inspect documents, you weigh their probative value. Historical facts are subject to this type of test; they are typically refractive from scientific tests. In Skep's case, every document entered into evidence you claim to be suspect; while objecting is the right of the opposing counsel, you are also jury; of course you cannot come to a rational decision if you discount all evidence. No wonder you are skeptical; you discount all available evidence. Not fair, but it's your journey, not mine to make.
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People don't fight against something that doesn't exist, or something they don't believe exists.

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....what on Earth are you talking about? What book?
And I'm not on some journey- I already made it during my years of study deconverting from Christianity.

You have no evidence to discount- you have Third hand claims not eyewitnesses of anything. And if one were to take personal testimony as evidence for gods one would have to accept every god man has ever worshiped.

It's not our fault you can't make an argument that's not rife with logical fallacies. Attempting to divert from the fact that your arguments are flawed by claiming we are somehow choosing to discount your poor evidence because of some imaginary agenda is rather obvious here.
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@Deb-
One does when people constantly try to shove belief on that imaginary thing on her and into our laws, schools, and government. If you Christians could just keep your religion to yourselves I wouldn't care what darn fool things you believed.
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I don't ask you to join our merry band Skep. It's not for you. Too much fun without drinking! But I prefer not to be called names, is all. Then again, you call whomever you wish whatever names you wish to make you feel superior. It's needed, and I would not remove it from you.
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Book: Bart Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist. It seems too many koolaid drinking skeptics think he's figment of imagination. I can't get a single atheist to read the thing... Makes me think I am the only one with the ability to read the opposition.
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If you don't believe the Bible is Gods word, then after you die and it's too late, you will realize that you have made a terrible mistake. Look around you. Can you not see that surely there is a higher power. Look at life itself. Do you think it just happened? There are too many things that tell us there is a God and the Bible is his work. Eternity is never ending and Hell is a place of torment where the lost soul will be in eternal damnation if you are not born again like Jesus said. Be honest with yourself, find a old fashioned God fearing Preacher that is interested on your soul and not your money and he will guide and help you to pray through to genuine salvation. Then you will know for yourself that the Bible is surely TRUE and is surely GODs word. God Bless you.

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I don't think propagating fear is good for any one, especially through religion. Shame
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Well the Bible says to fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in HELL so if you want to not be scared of HELL that's your choice.
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Ah Pascal's Wager. Which only works on people too dim to realize there's more. Than one religion in the world.
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sharkdart
Or you could not believe in hell in the first place.
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Wishful thinking, faith, that is. The Bible is all they've got, despite its contradictions and obvious manipulations. The circular logic of God is real because the Bible says so, and the Bible is true because God says so, is just insulting to anyone capable of objective intelligence. But in this free society, let the weak, the downtrodden, and the fearful have their crutch and be well.

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Thanks for the freedom.. Were you present at the big bang or did you read about it.
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No more present than you were during the 6 days of Creation.
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And the Big Bang gas supporting evidence while creation does not.

Claiming you can't know anything if you weren't there personally must make you ignorant indeed.
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By your "logic" Betty you can't claim your Jesus existed since you weren't there.
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Skep: calling me ignorant .. Shame on you : you don't know me !!
I am a lovely. Kind . Generous .helpful.. Giving.. Gentle .... I could go on for days ... Ha ha ... Just kidding.
Have a great New Year with your new precious baby boy.
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Betty you seem like a really nice lady. You aren't as militant as old James, and I commend you on your positive nature though we stand on opposite sides of the debate.
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Hi Bettyeckles; The Bible is all we need,and tell's us everything we need to know,from Creation to Salvation,good and evil. Do you think it is a coincidence that the Bible holds all of the awnsers on good and evil,satan and sin,without the Bible all mankind would die in there sins,repent and be saved,such a small price to pay for eternal life, you were told about Jesus Christ and made a mockery of him and chose self,and you call others Ignorant,I'll take God's word not mans word.good luck
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People don't fight against something that doesn't exist, or something they don't believe exists.

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Ignorant means lacking knowledge of a topic. It's not an insult unless you are seriously insecure about your knowledge .

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Deb-
We do fight the imaginary when people try to shove belief in that imaginary thing on us and force it into our laws, schools, and government. I'm pretty sure you'd fight if our nation suddenly started making laws based on the Norse religion or put the Hindu story of creation into our schools as though it were fact.
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100 % secure about my knowledge.Arrogance ;When a person is led to believe that they are in some way more superior to everybody else. Pride is fine up until a point, but as soon as you believe that you are in some special way better than everybody else, you become arrogant.
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Wow, the irony of that statement coming from you is hilarious.
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As a Deist in my own right, I believe; If it is not revealed to me, it is just heresay. I have a right to disbelieve things that are claimed to have happened thousands of years ago based on the word of one person who then tells another and so forth. There is no proof, credibility or reason. All of these man made religions all disbelieve each other and I have the right to disbelieve them all. I am not an atheist because I do believe in God: The Intelligent Designer of the Universe, who is located outside this Universe.

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I just wrote on a piece of paper that everything I write us 100% correct do therefore no one ever needs to question anything I say or write. See how simple that is, the bible says its from god and us correct, therefore it is? sheesh. The reason people accept the bible as true and accurate us because of a couple 1000 years if people being told that at the point if a sword. And they grew up with the resulting influence.

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Any one who believes .. does so by faith..not tangible proof.

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Sounds like a shaky foundation to build faith upon.
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Faith? You'd be surprised at what faith can do .. THAT is all any believer has EVER had since the beginning of time. Faith that God is real .. and the bible is inspired by him.
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The fact that it is historically accurate, medically accurate, scientifically accurate. I know some will want to argue that. seems more like a question to do so.

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Um, it's none of those things.
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Please, explain why you think it's none of these. I don't won't to argue, but I have been studying this topic for over 25 years, and I would love to hear someones take on it.
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I can give immediate examples of stunning in accuracy in all those areas.

As a biologist, the list of scientific and medical errors is as long as my arm. They thought demons caused disease and that you could ward off leprosy by spraying animal pod around. They thought you could tell if a woman commuted adultery by having her drink holy water mixed with dust, which would make her stomach swell and thighs rot.
The bible also says the earth is the center of the solar system, is flat, pi is three, rabbits chew cud, insects have four legs, the light was "created" before the SOURCE of light (the stars and our sun), that plants were created before the sun, that there was a global flood, that all people on earth originated from a single breeding pair, and that people lived to 900 years old. That's just a few of the major errors in medical or scientific thinking.

Historically- nearly every major event described in the bible is mentioned NOWHERE else and has no supporting archaeological evidence. Many are outright disproven like Exodus- the Hebrew people were never slaves in Egypt. There was never a global flood. Even the existence of your central figure has no contemporary historical evidence to support his existence.

Intense study of the topic is why I am no longer a Christian in the first place.
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There's also the fact that even IF those claims were true that doesn't mean by extension your god exists. The Egyptians calculated the circumference of the Earth with startling accuracy in 1200BCE, performed rudimentary heart surgery, and were amazingly accurate record keepers. I don't see you worshiping Ra because of it.
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Well. Like I said I'm not here to argue, but it's an interesting take.
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To answer your question in one word: Desperation.

There is no proof and can be no proof of the existence of "God". Therefore those people who need to believe wave the Bible about and say, "This is his word. This proves he is real."

In a work of fiction -- especially sci-fi or fantasy -- the writer and reader enter into an agreement by which the reader suspends his disbelief for the duration of the book and the writer tries to keep within the parameters he has set himself. The Bible is such a hodge podge of fantasy and contradiction that no reader can be expected to suspend his disbelief far enough to believe it.

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Does ...that ....mean...that Ann is (gulp) ...is NOT REAL??????
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Does that mean *I* am not real?????
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There, there, Yosey. Anne's a real person and she'll be flying over your way in the New Year. And you a certainly real. Any time you doubt it just resmember Descartes' immortal words: "I fly, therefore I am."

Yosey, you're even more real than Madroma (whom I virtually turned into a pillar of salt anyway).
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WHEW..... I feel soooo much better!!!!
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I better add the Descartes to my profile.....
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Done......
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TheHarem
HaHa......OK you two. Quit having so much fun! :)
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I'm real...I'm real...I'm a real were-eagle!!!!
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Oh Harem....OzMan wrote a wonderful novel and you may like it...

http://www.booksie.com/fantasy/novel/dozy/the-mistress-of-dimmiga-berg/chapter/1
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TH, I pay her $10 for every referral...
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TheHarem
Dozy......better put your $10 bucks back in your wallet. Or better yet, give it to Daizy. Chuckle :)
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Because they don't understand logical fallacies- in this case circular logic, petitio principii. AKA begging the question.

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Those kittens are soooo cute!
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I can't see what it says below them though.....
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And smart, Claire.
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Skep: didnt know if you'd read the comment to Z so i decided to come here.. I was wishing you a wonderful NewYear with your new precious baby boy. My 2 are grown. I loved every minute of their childhood.
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