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If a "holy" book contained conflicting verses, do we still consider it to be holy?

Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 11:11 - Life limited to 120 years?
Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:20 - Jacob's life was preserved?
Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9 - Who was God's firstborn?
Numbers 23:19 and Genesis 6:6-7 - Does God repent or not?
2 Samuel 6:23 and 2 Samuel 21:8 - Did Michael have children?
2 Samuel 8:4 and 1 Chronicles 18:4 - 700 or 7000 horsemen?
2 Samuel 8:9-10 and 1 Chronicles 18:9-10 - Toi or Tou? Hadadezer or Hadarezer? Joram or Hadoram?
2 Samuel 10:18 and 1 Chronicles 19:18 - 700 or 7000 charioteers? 40,000 horsemen or footmen? Captain's name?

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The believers will just tell you to have faith or that you somehow just didn't understand it. Religion tends to discourage you from using your brain or asking questions.

The bottom line is, though, that any "divinely inspired" text wouldn't have any contradictions or errors; the bible is rife with them.

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No..believers shoud not just say to have faith. I fully disagree. It's good to discuss those items that a person does not understand...and to use your brain. It should never be taught to never use your brain. The bible is not full of errors. If it were..it would have been thrown out the window years ago!
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Bull. There are thousands of errors in the bible, and pretty much every other religious text. They are still around because people either believe blindly or ignore the errors because they want to believe.

And did you even read the other answers? How many said to just believe and not ask questions?
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I think you should just take a few minuets to google bible errors of bible fallacies or contradictions. You might be shocked but most likely not.
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may i humbly add a differing thought? the Bible was written in foreign languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) then translated to different languages starting about 300 BC. it has been translated many many times. it is my opinion that through the ages of translation, people might have made a few mistakes (as we all know, humans are not perfect). this is a reasonable hypothesis for any discrepancies found in the Bible. Just because God gave the words to write to a man does not mean that the man wrote it legibly enough to be properly translated thousands of years later. man is after all, only human.
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If it were full of errors..it would truly be out the window!!!! This has been studied for centuries and people have already tried to disprove the bible but no one has been able to. When a person doesn't understand something in the bible, they tend to take it out of context. And, it drives me crazy when christians on this site quote verses on here and completely take it out of context. I challenge christians often, on here, too. :) Each question a person has, needs to fully looked at in its context and the day and age it was written and by whom it was written, etc. Can't just call something an error before knowing the facts. And..the book would not be around anymore if it were false.
Trusty...googling it wouldn't do a whole lot of good. Because it's simply peoples opionions and that which have not likely found out the facts in what I've wrote earlier. I have googled certain things pertaining to the bible and got different answers and answers that maybe I wanted to hear, even if it wasn't truly scriptural. It'snot the end all of answers.
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Since your christian and all other christians think that there religion is right then then surely all other religions should have been thrown out the window there if they are all so wrong. This is where you are Absolutely 100% wrong. The bible has been proven false on very many occasions. These are not opinions. It's proven wrong based on FACTS.
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Denial is strong in this one. A quality much admired among believers.
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Indeed it is.
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Lolo-
I guess Hindus are right too then. The Vedas have been around for several thousand years more than your bible. And according to you, a book can't be around that long if it's false. So when will you be praying to Shiva?

Again, there are literally thousands of errors, and you prove my point on why people keep believing- they just pretend they aren't there. The usual Christian cop-out of "you just don't understand it" or "out of context" are just that- excuses. There have been hundreds of learned, experienced scholars who found these errors. Many of them are believers who are just honest enough to admit the bible has flaws. In fact, you'll find extremely few theologians who are literalists or inerrantists.

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I mean, did no one else notice that Lolo said she disagreed with my initial post then did exactly what I predicted- claimed we just didn't understand it.
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I wasn't saying you were misunderstanding. The people who ask questions or make an assumption of a particular scripture or people who do quote scripture and take them out of context. It is not full of errors. I would like to know which scripture you say is an error? There are many, I can think of, that seem a bit confusing and questions hae been asked. But..answers have been found when put in context. The only way to truly say this is to go through each scripture and talk about it. :)
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Do not question it, why go against his authority

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I disagree. we are to use our minds. There is an answer for everything. Each thing needs to be looked at in context and when it was written. I'd love to get back to the person asking when I get the chance.....
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No need to question authority, why use your brain?
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Feels need to question an answer to a question= Mind blown ;-;
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The complete facts don't matter. What matters is whether you believe that Jesus Christ died for you.

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actually they do
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It won't matter when you're dead however.
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no once you are dead there r no second chances. But if someone has questions on your faith it would be difficult to listen/ or consider if the person responded by saying Complete facts don't matter.
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Faith has no need for truth, only what it can convince you is true.
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ask a pastor or someone who knows more about the subject, but do not doubt God's word

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We are supposed to go according to the New Testament now.

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Plenty of contradictions there too.
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Didn't say there isn't, but I was thinking that the contradictions they were talking about is from old to new testament
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What difference does that make? Christians claim it's all divinely inspired and that they just don't have to follow the old laws anymore.
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Well first the old and new would contradict each other because the golden rules changed from the each other, besides, it has been translated so many times, it is very possible that it was failed translation for some of it.
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Yet it's verses, no matter how poorly transcribed are still held as absolute. Fail.
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Not to mention you have no evidence for these claims but are just making excuses.

Plus, the examples the poster have were not contradictions between old and new- in most cases they were contradictions in the same books!

Plus, you can't claim a text was divinely inspired but then this god for some reason allowed the text to get screwed up.
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Wow, I'm amazed by the believers. Their answers are to ignore the facts and what the Bible actually says. But, you're right, if there are conflicting verses, then it can't be a holy book. Why do believers still consider it one? Because it's ignorance.

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But the true facts don't matter! Who cares whether it was 700 or 7000! It won't make a difference in the long run! If your going to base your entire disbelief because of a few verses, I suggest you reconsider.
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Actually, yes the true facts do matter. The Bible calls itself the infallible word of god. This means there can be no contradiction and no mistakes. And not only that, but if the true facts don't matter, then that means pretty much anything can be removed from the Bible. if anything can be removed from the Bible, then there's not much left. Not even a belief system can even keep it.
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The Bible is inspired by not, not written by him. Human error is a good enough reason to prove against you. We're not prefect and God knows that. I would not be surprised if he put errors in to the bible to test his believers.
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*by God, not...
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again, the Bible says it's the infallible word of god. meaning that no matter what happens, even if humans did write it, he gave them the ability to be perfect in those writings. human error does not prove anything against me. and errors in the bible to test the believers? so.. first it's human error, now it's him putting errors? dude, get a life and get over it. the bible is wrong. if you can trust the bible even with all the errors in it, then you have no reason not to trust any other holy book. as you don't, then you have no reason to trust the bible.
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I have my Faith, and that is enough for me. I will not be the judge however, because it is not my place. God alone shall judge right from wrong, I won't argue with you any longer, you may believe what you wish.
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Wow they just try to come up with any lame excuse they can think of to attempt to deny the fallacious nature of their book.
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@Trusty: I know right! I'm just looking at this and I'm like, wow... The lame excuses they can come up with. You can tell christianity is an american religion, though. and he has the faith taht he was raised to believe in. it's a shame.
@Zealot: your only faith comes from what you were raised to believe in; from the only thing you know about. if you don't know about any other religion, or have never read any other religious books, then this is not faith. faith would be when you know about other religions and yet you still keep a certain one. you don't have faith. what you have is indoctrination. get it right.
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@PassageOne
I am not religious. Let me start there. go down and read my post and you will see why it is still considered a Holy Book, also this is a person's religion most of the posts that follow this religion will be like that. Me and you are.. well the minority here.
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Yes, i did indeed read that. But i would also like to let you know that some of the laws in the bible are also contradictory. by laws, i mean laws of nature, i guess you could say. according to the bible, those who don't believe in god, do not do good. this is a contradiction. there are plenty of people who don't believe in god or are atheists and yet they do good... good things even by the bible's definition. so it's not just the tiny little facts that are wrong. it's the things that this god is apparently telling to those who are writing it.
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Good is something that doesn't really have a set definition. You would be right if this was another word BUT good is able to be changed because if you have 4 billion dollars and you go and donate 10k to a charity then yeah you can consider that to be good, but in retro spect that is a REALLY small amount and doing this gives this person tax deductions and can be used for advertising purposes. So yeah it can be good but other motives might fuel the action which then kind of ruins the "good" of the deed.
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Like i said, it's what the Bible defines as good. There are some nonbelievers that actually do good things. Things that even the bible says is good. The bible of course talks about how it's all meant to be from the heart and with spirit. and there are plenty of atheists who do this.
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Atheism is a religion did you know that? Also like I said the bible was written a long time ago and good can be changed by the person using it. The bible means what the reader percieves it say. "The meaning is to the beholder" I do agree with you but at the same time this is a topic were you can't win because it all comes down to faith.
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Atheism is not a religion, honestly. A religion is an organized system of beliefs based on faith agreed upon by several or more people. This is not atheism.
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Religion is defined by: the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith & a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. Atheism is the belief that there is no god, so therefore it is a religion. Odd right? Religion is what you believe and atheism is what some one believes, therefore you are religious my friend ha. I'm agnostic.
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Actually there's a correction on that one. Atheism is not the belief that there is no god; atheism is the lack of belief in a god. Meaning that belief does not exist. Seriously, dude, you sound like a young teenager. You're premises are incorrect and you don't seem to understand basic ideas and arguments.
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There's a difference between believing there is none and not having a belief.
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There would be, but think about it. When someone asks you what you are would you say you don't believe in a god or i lack the ability to have faith in a god figure. How do I sound like a young kid? I'm showing and giving you legitimate proof ha.
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You may not like it, BUT atheism is not avalible to only ONE person it is a group of people that come to the conclusion the do not believe there is a god or some sort of altumatium figure.
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they do not*
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Yes, you're rigth about when people ask me. I say, "I don't believe in god." I don't say "I believe there is no god." You're getting all this mixed up. And you sound like a young kid because you have no legitimate proof. It's all based on things that honestly aren't even correct half of the time. oh, and also, here's a better definiton of religion:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=hp&cp=16&gs_id=2j&xhr=t&q=what+is+religion&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=what+is+religion&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.b2I&fp=2971ae0ea37985b4&biw=1280&bih=857
with this being said, atheism is not a religion.
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2nd definition. Not going to argue with you, also " young kid because you have no legitimate proof." If the english language isn't proof enough for you then you might be the "kid". I am not going to go in circles arguing with you. I have many friends that are atheists and even they have come to the conclusion it is a belief/religion. You can have your 10 year old temper tantrum all you want, but when it comes down to the facts it is almost impossible to not have some sort of religion. in this case you are religious, you just don't follow a set of rules made by a "god".
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lmao. do you really sit and worry about this? are you reading it in the language it was written in or the translated version?

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Not religious so I'll toss this out there.. IF this is real you really think John or who ever the hell wrote it counted every one to the exact # and then went back to check if all the #s written matched? All old books were hand written so one mistake meant re-writing it ALL. Lastly, if your religious you DONT question your religion IF your not religious why do you care? A holy book is all based off belief and trust. Either follow it or don't but don't question others reasons for believing it.

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loved your answer. I pictured the little old man with the shaky hand hunched over a small wooden table with a stub of a candle for light. You made me smile :}
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If all of it is supposed to be directly inspired by god then it wouldn't have any contradictions.
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Glad I did, although that is true a lot of old books have discrepancies because back then one mistake wasn't worth re-writing a 700+ page book, especially with "holy" books when they "mass produced" books
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TrustyLepp, religion works on the basis that god doesn't do everything you ask for and doesn't help you with everything. He may watch over your shoulder but he doesn't whisper in John's ear to change 700 soldiers to 700 chariets.
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@TrustyLepp, plus travel wasn't easy back then and I dubt a book writer was watching a battle happen, most likely it was told to John by some one else. And 2 ppl might have different perceptions so it makes discrepancies more often.
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Do you know what infallible means? This is supposed to be the infallible word of god written by men who were directly and divinely inspired by god. That means absolutely NO MIS
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*No MISTAKES.
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lol. Maybe the mistakes are on purpose so that when people find them and run to a believer and carry on it has given the believer the opportunity to talk/witness to you! hmmog you just don't know......
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Not true. If a song inspires you to do something you are saying you will do it flawlessly? Also the bible says everyone is imperfect, therefore your saying John is all of the sudden perfect?
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Dawn-
Far more likely to produce unbelievers. Especially when none of the believers can come up with better defenses than seen here.
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@skeptikitten
Agreed. # 1 reason people become religious is because they grow up with it and their parents believe it.
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Believe what you want. No one is stoping you.

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Not only would a "holy" book not have any contradictions but it also wouldn't have any sick laws or any "moral" stories of genocide, rape, murder, mutilating children, etc.

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It is a history of specific people/families over a specific period of time. Naturally it will have horrors of different things. Kinda like thehistory they teach in school has horrific things written that fellow humans have done. I know you are going to say that no one claims the books @ school as holy - true I was trying to mak an example as to the horrors you spoke of. Then look up holy in the dictioary and let me know.
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It's not holy when the "loving" god in it is commanding and causing all of it to happen.
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tis true. thy so called loving god has sent a bear to k!ll a group of people who insulted a bald man. i think that's what happened.
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hmmm. I think you have never actually read the king james version.......Which who cares but. i have enjoyed the conversation. And most of the things you speak of came about because people have free will
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WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!!!!! your god told families to sacrifice the firstborn male. that's not free will. that's your god telling people to do something. your god made it mandatory for a guy to d!e on the cross. it wasn't free will. he had to do it. your god made that mandatory. your god did plenty of things and saying it was free will is only trying to swerve around the lake but you end up falling in the water.
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No I'm talking about the things in the bible that were directly ordered and caused by god. No human will played any part in it. And there is no testing or free will when the god has already written the future and knows everything that will happen.
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Excellent, Trusty.
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sorry, but you made a mistake in that statement. if you are talking about Abraham sacrificing his son, God stopped him and accepted a different sacrifice. if you are talking about the Passover in Egypt, God said for the believers to put blood over their doorways and He would "passover" their homes, and spare their firstborn. God warned all of Egypt, and those who -of their free will - chose to follow His commands were spared. those who chose -of their free will- to not believe or obey, were not so fortunate
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I made no mistake.
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lmao. my god? I never claimed he was my god...but free will is free will. And everyone has free will
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and Jesus made His choice freely as the Son of God to sacrifice Himself for the world. Think of Jesus as a soldier...i don't think that any of our soldiers sent to Afghanistan went there wanting to be injured or killed, but they SACRIFICED themselves for our country.
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@ the brain - loved your comment. I would have explained it myself but I could tell by the comments they wrote it wouldn't have made a difference...
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and actually though jesus did make it his choice, it would've had to be done whether he liked it or not. after all your god did make it mandatory and said that it would be the last thing needed for eternal life. so regardless, even when he got to heaven, your god would've sent him back down and he would've had to suffer all over again.
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@dawn: it still didn't make any difference.
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@passage1 - well if God is all knowing and knows the past present and future then he already knew it would happen. But if you think jesus made a choice to suffer then it is free will. which kind of makes my point
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Bull. Wasn't Jesus put here for that purpose? So now its free choice. Second, I served in war, your sandal clad prophet knew nothing of the trials of being a soldier. Poor comparison.
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@dawn: exactly the point. which actually takes out the meaning of what jesus went through. you see, your god sent him to die because HE KNEW jesus would do that. so it wasn't really the fact that your god sent some really important guy to die; your god sent the exact guy that he knew would carry out the task. and regardless of what happens, since your god knew it would happen, it takes out the whole free will thing.
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What do you guys not understand about omniscient? God sacrificing his son (himself) to himself hardly a sacrifice. Especially since he knew that Jesus (himself) would end up spending eternal life in peace.
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@Z - jesusu was born to fullfill a promise made. He had a choice to fullfill it or not. As for wars and soldiers. You served your country and therefore you deserve a thank you for your service from the country you served. There are many types of wars that have horrible sights and can mess with your brain. The trials a soldier endures are unique to that group/ type of soldiers.
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Exactly. That's the point Z is trying to make. Z over here suffered way worse than your jesus did. This man probably has depression and all kinds of brain disorders. Jesus, all he got was d3ad. He got the chance to at least escape all that.
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EXACTLY! Free will
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No, not free will. You have to realize something. Your jesus is god. and your god is jesus. meaning regardless of what happened, your god was the one that did it all the time.
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You keep making him my god. WHY? and oh yeah jesus was a man.
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@Dawnbright, thank you. usually i try to stay out of religious debates, because i do not believe that they are productive, and generally cause anger and frustration. i just felt compelled, for my own sake -selfishly- to show my side of the debate. i try to remember that my belief is not the beliefs of everyone, and that because of the sacrifice of our soldiers, we all have freedom of religion. i hope that respect for differing opinions will continue in this forum.
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i agree. I love to read good thought out commentsand some of the best are the ones whch make me think and review. I really enjoy a good debate. THANK YOU
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Ouch, @Passage. Your sentiment is greatly appreciated, but Im not sure I can ride along with the brain disorders point. It is true that depression was my companion for a long time tho. Thanks for taking up my point.
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Not everyone's convinced we actually have free will, dawnbright.
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What a lot of Christians don't know is that the autographs (original writings) are inspired, not the copies. The autographs are the original writings--the original documents penned by the biblical writers. The copies are copies of inspired documents. The copies are not themselves "inspired"; that is, they have no guarantee of being 100% textually pure. But don't worry, the Bible manuscripts are 98.5% textually pure. Only a very small amount of information is in question because we have repetitive facts, instructions, and information found elsewhere in the Bible. Nevertheless, through the copying method over the years, various textual problems have arisen.Does this mean that the Bible we hold in our hand is not inspired? Not at all. Inspiration comes from God, and when He inspired the Bible it was perfect. Our copies of the original documents are not perfect, but they are very close to being so. http://carm.org/introduction-bible-difficulties-and-bible-contradictions

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loved your answer
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thanks much
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very nice answer!
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Yes. It's still considered holy because God is the one who made his words know to us. We can ask questions and we can be doubtful at times but it's gods words in the texts that help us to accept his divine wisdom

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Of course not. It is full of errors because it was written by men. Scared and ignorant men at that.

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It is a book of stories containing truth nuggets meant for us to base our lives off of. It's not intended to be taken literally.

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Many do, no matter how egregious the contradiction. Faith abhors reason.

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Jeremiah 8:8 explains it very well.

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Yes! The symbols of man (written words) can never equal the Absolute Holy One. Very good answer!! I guess I'm doomed to writing "books" as answers...just how I'm wired I guess. Lol
Thanks for your answer ;)
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Haha no problem, buddy. I love reading your answers anyways. :)
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When you teach ESL, reading kinda becomes your thing you know LOL!
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I have seen this basically same insinuating question before, although at least u took the time to list a few of the supposedly incriminating examples. I can add many many more to your list...on through the new testament. I agree that many Christians are not aware of the these "discrepancies", but weather or not one is aware or not is no matter as to weather it can be accepted as a "holy" book. 1.The reality is that it is not "a" book, but 66 (not including the apocrypha and the duetero-canonical books and weather or not a couple books like Deuteronomy or Psalms are more than one book each). These books are not all of the same genre, cultural, religious, political contexts nor written all written by the same human authors. 2. We do not have the original manuscripts. 3. They are not written as analytical science texts, and only partly as historical source documents (and when they can be said to be historical, not likely with the same premise of modern historiography). 4. The cumulative message of the bible is a revelation of God who alone is explicitly Holy, no the books themselves (this is basically according to bible itself). These may serve as a helpful outline....much can be said to explain the implications of those four points in relation to the bible being "holy", but not enough room here. There are certainly difficult passages and concepts (no surprise there considering it's essential subject matter), however the vast majority of the discrepancies that u likely consider as making the bible un-holy simply drop away as slag from the anvil of the iron smith (metaphorically speaking of course). The bible is naturally and reasonably known as representing what is Holy: God (Yahweh). The bible is not God.

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Thanks for your long answer. Since you took the time to write that...can you explain even 1 of the questions asked? :)
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Your list cites several different books, not just one, and each was written by different people at vastly removed time periods so i dont understand your question. I mean if one guy writes a book in like 800 BC and another book is written 850 years later by a completely different person there likely to be a difference in perspective. That isnt the same as conflict. Early books were largely history taken from centuries of oral history, or prophesy for which the content and meaning was more important than specific words used.
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1. No contradiction. 6:3 is pre-Flood and God was angry. Their lives were limited to the amount of time it took to build the ark. Probably 120 years since it was all by hand. 11:11 is post Flood when God needed to repopulate the earth and lives cont to be long.
2. Dont understand your problem here. In Gen. Jacob is wrestling with an angel sent by God, not God Himself and its JACOB while in Exodus its MOSES and God is simply pointing out no human mind can survive looking upon the full glory of God. Only Levite priests were allowed and they had to do a long list of rituals first. So no conflict here i can see.
3. Here the first reference is to the nation or people of Israel while the second is tthe tribe of Ephraim, ine if the tribes of Israel. Ephraim was first born if Joseph who was, in turn, first born of Jacobs favorite wife and love Rachel. Jeremiah is a prophecy book and soeaks of the restoration of Israel, including Ephraim whose people were despised even by ither Israelites, to Gods favor.
4. Again pre-Flood and post, and i dont see a conflict. Pre-Flood every person on earth had turned against God except Noah so by then He was sorry. But if He had changed His mind He would have just winked the earth out if existance and been done with it instead if sparing Niah and his family and the earth itself. He still loved His humans, he was simply sorry about their rebellion.
4. Its Michal (no 'e') and she was one of SEVERAL daughters Saul had by more than one wife. Michal did not have a child. Her sisters apparently did.
5 -7. The rest is just you being silly and petty. I mean is it Quran or Kuran? Is it Qadaffi or Khadaffi! Was it 65,000 troops who fought at Gettysburg or 80,000? Doesnt matter does it? The North still won and thousands still died. Doesnt matter how an author spelled the name of a guy who lived centuries before compared to a totally different author, or if their numbers were a little different from each other. The point of the passages is that David kicked Had....whatevers (the enemy of Gods people) butt, and destroyed ALL but a few of the enemies arsenal with the might of God behind him.

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I tend to develop a good relationship with those I meet. I have met God and we have a good friendship. The Bible promotes a belief that God is a poor creator who disliked his creation enough that he killed them off, started over, and still failed to get what he wanted. The God portrayed in the Bible is vengeful, promotes human sacrifice, and wants people to worship him. My Friend, God, is not like the God of the Bible at all. I have never met anyone he doesn't like. And I do mean, ANYONE. My Friend, God, did creation once and got it right the first time. He wanted to be more than singular and created the physical world where he could experience duality, the ability to choose and experience the effects of choice that singularity did not allow. My friend, God, does not promote worship. He doesn't need such foolishness to bolster his ego. He is supremely confident in his abilities. He promotes friendship.

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Yep! Full of holes!

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