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A nursing home has a policy of not giving CPR to patients, even the nurses. A woman died last week because of this. Why such a rule?

I was shocked that not even the nurses are allowed. What possible reasons can there be for such a rule? 911 said THEY take on the responsibility if anything goes wrong. Should they be held accountable?

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Well , ,,,,, if any nurse at this home
Has CPR training , and does not administer it, they can and should be held liable for any death,
However , if they are not trained for
That purpose , there is nothing
Anyone can do. And CPR on an older person could lead to broken ribs
- that's all I can think of -
if I know CPR and try to help, however
that person dies , I am not liable ,
I am protected by the Good Samaritan act

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I get ya, but a nurse called 911. And they also told the nurse that dispatch is responsible. It's confusing. Thanks for the answer!
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Maybe because they already called
And it's ones obligation to help when and if they can- like if one is chocking
At a restaurant - are we not to administer help ?
Because they may choke n die-
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It is the policy of that particular company to do nothing except call 911. The dispatcher was just about begging for the nurse to do something. What gets me is the daughter said she was satisfied with their actions
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I know boo, it was painful to hear huh? I'm sure the daughter IS satisfied..... Someone brought up a good point tho, if she had a DNR they could be sued. But my husband said the news said she didn't. It's really..odd this whole thing. I bet some laws will be made or changed.
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The companies cry is that it's an independent living facility and not a care facility but I'm thinking that if that nurse passed someone on the street, she would have acted.
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Because if they die then it's a liability issue. Just like how teachers aren't allowed to touch kids if they get stuck in a tree or on the monkey bars.

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Wrong-
If one knows CPR - they are expected to assist - and if one dies -
The Good Samaritan act is there to protect people that try to help . But still fail ,
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I've never heard of such a thing. So you're saying a teacher should allow a child to injure themselves and be LESS liable? Interesting. Thanks for answering!
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Actually right. I used to work in one.
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Suzie- are you talking to me
Or commenting on the answer?
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So because "you've never heard such a thing" I'm wrong?
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The Good Samaritan act is for individuals who assist someone that they happen upon, not an employee of the residence. I think in this situation, both the individual and company could be held liable. That's why the 9-1-1 operator was asking the nurse to hand the phone to any passerby and she would walk them through the CPR process. Sad as it is, the nurse did the right thing.
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Not if the nurse knows CPR !
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What tells you she did?
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The question that I answered
The reason we are here now
Try re reading it
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A teacher who is on "yard duty" has a responsibility to protect the kids & can get himself or herself plus the school district in legal trouble for not acting. The hands off has to do with not jerking the kid around & yelling about staying out of trouble.
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Disregard ^ above-
Nothing tells me she knew -
She's a nurse - it's an assumption
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Immaterial. As an employee of the nursing home - even knowing CPR which she admitted she did - she and the company could be held liable and that's the reason they have the policy in place. If a visitor at the home was on the scene and administered CPR and the lady still died, the Good Samaritan act could come into play.
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Your wrong shady
Not acting would be worse-
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Ps- shady - what policy are you speaking of
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I didn't say it would be better or worse. For the lady who died, it was certainly worse. As I mentioned in my response to the question, if you want to blame someone, blame the lawyers who would jump all over the nurse and company if this lady died. By sticking to the hands-off policy, they avoided a legal liability and are not responsible for any damages. Is that right? We could argue it isn't but that's the way the legal system operates. You can do the "right" thing and still get into a lot of trouble.
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Agreed" you can do the right thing and still get in trouble "
The question said nothing of such a policy -
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The nursing home has a policy to not intervene in such a situation but instead call 9-1-1 and let the emergency personnel do their thing. They followed this policy.
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I re read the question
You are correct !
My apology !
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Not a problem. Good discussion on an important topic.
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And these nurses should not know
Or be up to date on CPR training .
Because even with this policy,
If they know CPR and are current on training - it's one obligation to administer -or legal action could follow.
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Sheldon I hadn't seen your response before I answered. I was talking to madeyoulook. Sorry, if I had seen yours I'd have specified. Thanks for your answers too.
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Anytime
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There's a difference between a kid stuck on the monkey bars and a 87 year old woman fainting (then dying).
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Assisted living is sort of a gray area. The inhabitants are not patients. As a licensed nurse the legal aspects of Good Samaritan laws are different.
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There could be lots of reasons for this rule even though it does seem unfair and wrong. One of the reasons could be protecting the workers from diseases and viruses.

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I suppose. But that can be said of any of us. They do have things to protect the mouth etc. And they could use the equipment emt's use. Thanks for answering!!
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There is a CPR kit that most establishments are required to keep on site now. It contains a resuscitation mask and gloves that can be easily used to protect the person giving CPR from diseases... So I'm not sure why this could not be used...
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I see what yall are both saying but that could be a possiblitly also the liablity everyone mentione.d
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I was under the impression (maybe wrong I guess) that the act of anyone knowing CPR and does not assist is illegal itself.

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Correct -
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THANK YOU!! I thought so too really. This was shocking!
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Not correct.
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Hi Nwarguy!
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Hiya Marcus! How's school going?
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School was cancelled today. In other words it went great from the perspective of a teen! LOL. How's your day?
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Doing good! Kinda dreading tonight though... gotta go home and work out. Sooo out of shape and trying to get ready for the Warrior Dash in May.
http://www.warriordash.com/
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Is that an official obstacle course?
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Yep :)
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How cool! Good luck!
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I think the same thing Proudmomma said.

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Happy Monday Mr Marcus!!
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You too, Lady Suzie! :)
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Haha! Thanks!!
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If the patient has provided the nursing home with a "Living Will", which contains a "Do not resuscitate" clause", I would say the choice lies with the patient.

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That was my thought as well. Possibly there was a DNR in place.
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Oh wow, I never even thought of that! You are absolutely right!! They could be sued for not honoring that. LIGHTBULB! Haha, now my day can start! Thank you!
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All of the reports I have read or heard indicated there was no DNR on file with the facility.
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Yes Cal, I was just about to say that. My husband reminded me. This will change some things I bet. Very very strange situation.
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@Suzie and Johnnie: This happened in my state of California, so we have been hearing and reading news reports of this for a couple of days, and all reports state there was no DNR.
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Sorry for the cross-post.
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It's a matter of liability and you can thank our legal system for such a policy. They stay out of trouble by following the company policy and not intervening. If a nurse jumped in and the resident died anyway, a lawyer could argue that they were responsible and now liable for a large dollar compensation. By sticking to the policy, the company is not responsible and the poor lady died. Don't blame the nursing home. Blame the lawyers who are chasing ambulances and looking for a quick buck.

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I understand what you're saying but hasn't there been a good Samaritan law? Thanks for answering!
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The problem was the nurse was an employee of the nursing home and both the home and nurse would have been held liable and thus the reason for for the policy - to avoid any legal liability. The 9-1-1 operator was trying to get the nurse to hand the phone to any passerby and she would walk them through the CPR process. Had that failed, the Good Samaritan law might have been applied.
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The facility did not ask the woman helping to sign a waiver releasing the place from all responsibility no matter what happened

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Thanks for answering!
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The woman helping was a nurse employed by the facility
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The dispatcher said that EMS assumes all responsibility if the caller attempts CPR by the dispatcher's instructions. The facility should be aware of that and should have informed their staff of that fact of law.
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And you cannot expect a woman who's not breathing to sign a waiver. That 911 operator, the desperacy she had in her voice was bone chilling.
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...As bone chilling as the lack of emotion in the voice of the nurse who was repeatedly refusing to help. A complete lack of humanity.
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It was not a nursing home. It was an independent living facility. This place is like a hotel or apartments with a dining hall. They are not a medical facility. The woman who collapsed was 87, if you are not extremely careful performing CPR on a patient that old, whose bones are mostly likely very brittle, you may be doing more damage than good. The elderly woman and her family were aware of the policy going into this facility. Yes it is a very sad situation, but until you know all the facts you can not pass judgment.

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I asking a question for petes sake. Don't judge me, k??
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It depends on if the patient has an order called a DNR and opt for no lifesaving care. If they have a doctors order they just allow the patient to go through the natural death process.

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That's true they do , I was just thinking about that.
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She didn't..... But that's a good point. Thank you!!
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A lot of folks have themselves as "Do Not Resuscitate" for religious reasons, might be a religious nursing home

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She didn't. Thank you for answering.
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Hi Suzie I was shocked of the news when I heard it. I guess the home where this elderly lady lived has rules to abide by and cannot be broken. I can understand this but I I was put in a situation like that then it would be a moral decision to help this woman even if it cost me my job. Everyone has different views of what they would do but if I didn't do my darnedest to help this person I might still have a job but my conscience would eat me alive for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter the age of the person that past away. We are all human beings

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Morning Monte!! Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I can see judgement day "but I liked my job...." Thanks for your answer!
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This is what we get for being a litigious society. However, that does not release that nurse from her professional and moral obligation to save that life (unless there was a DNR on file -- which there wasn't.) Her refusal to save that woman's life is similar to the excuses given by Nazis at the Nuremberg Trials; that they were only following orders. This is simply disgusting!

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I agree on all accounts (that's a shocker too huh? Haha) A hero isn't just someone who saves a person, a hero is someone who risks their lives, welfare, needs to save someone. I guess we know what class she isn't in. I couldn't sleep at night, job or no job... Absolutely SHOCKING!! And worse, she is a nurse!! Changes will be made I'm sure. And hopefully she loses her license. Don't nurses take an oath too? It was just so wrong on so many levels.
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My sister-in-law, who is a nurse (and also disgusted by this woman's negligence), suggested I check into the California Nursing Practice Act. Here is what I found:
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2727.5. Liability for emergency care
A person licensed under this chapter who in good faith renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency which occurs outside both the place and the course of that person's employment shall not be liable for any civil damages as the result of acts or omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care.
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My sister-in-law also said that in a court of law the determination of a nurse's liability hinges on a determination of "reasonable and prudent practice". Not administering CPR, I would think, would be in violation of a nurse's "reasonable and prudent practice".
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Oh exactly. Really, it was negligent homicide. It's not only a professional factor, it's a human factor. I don't know how old you are or if you ever heard of the silo missile incident where a wrench dropped down the silo and it blew? Well my cousin (Jeff Kennedy) was one of the 2 men working on that. He was blown clear across the yard and against a fence and told not to go back in. He went in to try and save his co worker. He saved someone, or a few, not sure exactly... They reprimanded him severely. I think he was even removed. Then the govt, after all the media blitz, honored him. He was on 60 Minutes They asked him what his medal of honor meant to him and he said absolutely nothing because of how awful they treated him. He was hospitalized, in and out for years. My point is, it's a hero that risks their own good for the good of another. This nurse needs to be reprimanded severely. How on earth can you just, NOT TRY?? I do not get that!
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Senior Airman David Livingston and Sergeant Jeff K. Kennedy entered the launch complex early on the morning of September 19 to get readings of airborne fuel concentrations, which they found to be at their maximum. At about 3:00 a.m., the two men returned to the surface to await further instructions. Just as they sat down on the concrete edge of the access portal, the missile exploded, blowing the 740-ton launch duct closure door 200 feet into the air and some 600 feet northeast of the launch complex. The W-53 nuclear warhead landed about 100 feet from the launch complex?s entry gate; its safety features operated correctly and prevented any loss of radioactive material. Kennedy, his leg broken, was blown 150 feet from the silo. Livingston lay amid the rubble of the launch duct for some time before security personnel located and evacuated him. Livingston died of his injuries that day. Twenty-one people were injured by the explosion or during rescue efforts.
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Exactly. We did not survive as a species by not caring about the welfare of our fellow human. Your cousin was a hero. It is unfortunate that heroism seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
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I know. Truly sad. Your sister sounds like a wonderful person. Thought most nurses are, guess not. Just shocking.
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Cal, is there any more said about the family besides the daughter being satisfied with her treatment? That sounds disgustingly off as well.
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I haven't heard anything about the family's reactions. I'll have to look that up. If they had an unofficial DNR "understanding" with the facility, that facility is in legal doo-doo with the state.
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Well the daughter sounded happy with them. From what I've heard anyway.
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What I read was that a representative of the facility said all residents agree to the "hands off" policy when they sign the agreement to live there. But that doesn't sound like it would have the legal weight of a DNR -- unless it was built into the rental agreement. Then there was technically a DNR on file, and the nurse or someone should have informed the dispatcher of that. Saying it is against policy is far different than saying there is a DNR on file.
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Like others have mentioned ... This is not hospital policy as much as it is the wishes of the patients. They have requested a "do not resuscitate" order.

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This woman did not have one. Thanks for your response tho.
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Right. Well her daughter is very satisfied with her treatment...CHA-CHING..... I mean that's what it sounds like.
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Had there been a DNR on file, the nurse should have informed the dispatcher of that fact and the entire episode would have been diffused, and the nurse would not be vilified as she is now. But she didn't mention a DNR because there wasn't one.
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Are you sure you aren't mistaking a DNR order on certain patients rather than an across the board order? If it is a hospice wing there is no CPR given per the DNR orders.

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There was no order. It was assisted living, not nursing. That was my mistake.
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The bottom line is that during the entire time that the dispatcher was pleading for this nurse to help, or find someone who would, that nurse never told the dispatcher about a specific DNR for the patient, or a blanket DNR for all residents. Instead, she simply said it was against policy for her to help. It has been reported by various news sources that there was no DNR.
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