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If God knew that humans would sin before we did it why did he make us in the first place?

My Atheist friend was asking me and a few other Christians I know this question and I really want to be able to answer him.

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That is one of the problems.

If you claim he had to allow it to have free will, you've just admitted your god isn't omnipotent. After all, an all-powerful creator could have made his creation with the ability to choose "sin" but not the desire. Claiming you "can't" have free will without evil negates an all-powerful creator.

If you claim he didn't know, then he isn't all knowing.

And if you say he did know, and knew what you would choose and that this choice would lead to eternal punishment, and created you ANYWAY- that negates omni benevolence. It means your god has the ability to prevent any people from going to hell (by simply only allowing those that would choose him to be born) and doesn't.

No matter how you slice it, claiming an all-omni god doesn't wash.

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Skeptikitten, I though your experiment was an excellent idea. I did that when I was eight, because of the slaughter of animals to make god happy, and because so many people got killed, and because I could not believe the bible stories were true (the talking snake was a big problem), and because if god wanted me to do something, he could speak to me directly instead of one of the salesmen. Great idea. I also don't believe that shiny fabric is anything other than shiny.
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I like you Kitty - you tell it like (you believe) it is. Whether you realize it or not - your strong counterpoints make 'the Faithful' contemplate their own beliefs and hopefully make them stronger in the end.

Creation is a wonderful topic to banter about, but it's usually a stalemate, because no one knows for sure what happened. And the Old Testament stories of Jonah & the whale, Noah & the Ark, and Mose parting the Red Sea usually become stumbling blocks or excuses to people analytically trying to justify the effort of having faith.

Personally, I'm a believer in Christ because of the New Testament Gospel and the actual impact it's had on my life. I try not to demean other faiths or beliefs (even atheism or agnosticism), because I simply don't know how God might use other people's personal experiences to show them His Truth.

I'm no Saint, and I don't claim to have perfect peace & serenity in my life, but compared to where I was before my acceptance - I'm very content today.
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Dave not only are the children's stories you mentioned a stumbling block but logic is as well. Perhaps those that must have something to hold on to in order to make themselves feel whole should become Buddhists. Because so long as they continue to use illogical bronze-age stories to guide their lives there will always be those of us that use logic to guide ours that will remind them of it.
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Kitten, I don't claim He had to do anything.
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I don't claim He didn't know.
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However, your next paragraph is worth argument. God does know what each one of us will choose in the end. But if God were to just say, "Everything is over. I know what will happen so it's happening now," that wouldn't be fair. By letting time pass like it is God is giving everyone a chance. He may KNOW what each one of us will choose but by letting the world take its course He disclaims the choice and leaves it up to us.
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Bunk. "Not fair" is a rigged game where the outcome is already known. There is no such thing as a free choice if your "god" already knows that choice- that makes it predetermined.
In fact, considering that if your god is omniscient he knew "the fall" would happen and humanity would be screwed, had the power to stop it, and didn't- he rigged the deck.

And your contention is wrong- Christians claim evil exists because it is the only way to allow free will. Which is of course inconsistent with both an omnipotent and an omniscient creator. And the omni benevolent claim is absurd on it's face- one can show mountains of examples in the bible that prove your god is not all loving.

Fortunately this is academic as these stories are mythological.
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"Not fair" is a rigged game in which the outcome is predetermined. Knowing the outcome doesn't predetermine it. If that were the case, God's knowledge would control Him and take away His own free will as He even knows what He will do next. But since God has free will even while He knows His own future, it should be the same for humans. God rigged no deck.
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I'm sorry but your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Can you rephrase? Regarding your final paragraph: that's completely of opinion.
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Uh, no. If the outcome of events, particularly complex events, is known they ARE predetermined. If a choice was truly free, it would be impossible for anyone to know it with certainty ahead of time. You're basically just trying to argue that your god doesn't have to make sense because he's god.

You see, dear, if there is no way for the outcome of the event to be other than what "god" knows it to be, it's rigged. There's no choice.
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Skeptikitten, I see we've come to an agreement. You just said it better than I did: God doesn't have to make sense because He's God.
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Then by definition your god is senseless. If it created humans, as theists claim, but didn't have the ability to make sense to those that were made in its own image, it can only mean that it's not omnipotent or enjoys playing games. Take your pick.
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No, I said you are trying to claim god doesn't have to make sense just because he's god. It's a ridiculous fallacy called Special Pleading.

The claims made about your god in your scriptures is inconsistent with its actual stories. The problem of evil and the all-omni god is just the most glaring of those problems.
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Cal - Don't get me wrong — God can do anything. He has the ability to make sense to us, although, He chose not to. Why, I don't know. But again I hit the wall. I'm only human.
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Kitten - Humans often popularize terms such as "Special Pleading" to make them sound powerful. But on the contrary, no human term can negate my God or His ways. If I'm hearing you right, we agree that God doesn't have to make sense to us humans because He's God.
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Although I don't understand the last sentence of your last paragraph (I apologize), can you explain the inconsistency between claims and stories about God?
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He was probably bored

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Mr_FadedGlory
You goof!
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Hah I didn't have any other answer xD
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Mr_FadedGlory
Your funny!
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Thanks :D right back atcha!
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Mr_FadedGlory

God gave us free will.

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Glory, I didn't know you believed in God. That makes you and I brothers in Christ. I ask that we can forget about the past and be good to each other?
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Mr_FadedGlory
No
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Glory, I'm sorry I yelled at people. Please understand I was suffering.
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Mr_FadedGlory
No, your a selfish narrow minded person who I do not want to associate with.
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Not sure I've done anything lately to deserve that; not that I'm terribly hurt. Good evening.
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Mr_FadedGlory
That's exactly what I'm talking aboutb
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Well if you want me to stick around; what is?
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This life is a test from God who gave us the free well to choose who we want to be, therefore the sins are something granted but God mercy is above all :)

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Thanks. I really wanted a good answer so I there is a chance in him finding Jesus.
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Finding God :)
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Am really glad you are helping him with this. This shows a good side of you :) God Speed ^^
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You realize that makes your "god" a jerk? Testing people when you already know the outcome is something a bored tyrant does to amuse himself.
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G-D , in my opinion,created people to grow into companions. that's why he gave us free will, so we could follow his laws or not we had to have knowledge of sin and rightness or we'd be like robots or somebody told to say"i love you". they may say it,but it doesn't have the same value as when it comes freely. hope this helped. shalom.

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Why do you say G-D instead of God?
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GOD, always. :)
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That's a good question. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure why, but for the reason of sin He sent a redeemer who will wash away our sins.

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Gods purpose for us all was to be perfect until our first parents sinned against God which in turn makes everyone after them sinners. Either way you're atheist friend will not believe you because the holy bible is not proof enough that god exists

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I know that. I want to give him an answer so that I can sort of show him that Christianity is not just easily able to pass of as theories.
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God is real, people CHOOSE not to notice.
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I know. It is annoying
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God isn't real. People just CHOOSE not to notice and it's annoying.


See how little that kind of statement contributes to dialogue? And you wonder.why people reject your claims- it's because you expect people to believe them just because you say so.
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God is real to me and to millions of people. You are right on one thing. People do choose to ignore God and they have the right to. Although I am not a practicing Christian I believe in Gods word even if you think it's fake. You keep to you're Darwin books and I'll keep to the Holy Scriptures. You might know science and evolution but you're no expert in religion. Especially not Christianity
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In brief ...

since God is the Sustainer of all life, nothing happens except by His Will and with His full knowledge. Everything in the world has a set, predetermined course.

This belief does not contradict the idea that human beings have the free will to choose a course of action. God does not force us to do anything; we can choose to obey or disobey Him. However, our choice is known to God before we even do it, because His knowledge is timeless and complete.

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There are many inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. Live your life as an atheist for a day. Pretend not to believe for one day. Convince yourself, just for a day that you have been fooled by people who have also been fooled and its not your fault or theirs. This is what an atheist sees. An old story taught to people generation after generation with no rhyme or reason. Repeat anything in someone's ear, day after day, year after year, and they will believe it. No matter how it sounds.

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Belief in God is a spiritual belief that comes from the heart.

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And the athiest games you want to play is directly from Satin!its his game to put doubt in your mind just like he did with Eve. Satin is the father of lies/doubt/deceit/fear/. He has you right where he wants you.
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Shiny fabric is the father of lies?

Perhaps your senseless rant would be more effective if you could actually spell the word "Satan".
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Skeptikitten, I though your experiment was an excellent idea. I did that when I was eight, because of the slaughter of animals to make god happy, and because so many people got killed, and because I could not believe the bible stories were true (the talking snake was a big problem), and because if god wanted me to do something, he could speak to me directly instead of one of the salesmen. Great idea. I also don't believe that shiny fabric is anything other than shiny.
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To lilli pad. Lies doubt etc is what they put in that book to counter act people questioning what they were teaching. You only believe the bible because someone you respect or love taught it to you. I had the luxury of never being brainwashed with all that nonsense so it sounds ridiculous to me. Ask yourself if your God is a loving one, why to terrible things happen to innocent people. Please don't quote some phrase out of the bible, say it in your own words, feelings,
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Love is the answer. He is Love.
He wanted our relationship with Him to be based on genuine love not forced. That is why he gave us free will to choose to love Him. And because even some of the angels that had lived in His presence in heaven had made the wrong choice. He knew we would need a way to reconnect with him after we made the wrong choice. That is why He already had a plan for His son to be our sin sacrifice to reunite us with Him after we had made a bad choice. He loves us.

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He wanted companionship. Just like us... We get married and we WANT to have children. We want to create a part of us to love. We know our children will not be perfect & will probably get into BIG trouble at times. But we want someone to love. He loves us no matter how bad we sin.

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Except until the end when he doesn't love us enough to keep us from burning for eternity.
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Cal, that is why He sent Jesus, to keep us" from burning in hell"
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@Straw: He doesn't have the power to keep us from burning in hell? The only reason I am not a believer is that this alleged deity has failed to make his presence unequivocally known to me, and/or that Jesus was his divine representative in the natural world -- things an all-powerful deity should be able to do easily. But it is your belief that this deity is willing to punish me for eternity because of this failure on his part. Obviously, you think you know not only that he exists, but also what he wants you to do -- as opposed to the adherents of all other religions who know that their deity wants them to do something different. Not only does it require proof of his existence, but that proof would need to be rational. What you are pushing just isn't rational.
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It is a failure on you part, not His. Just because you choose not to" not "send people to hell, doesn't mean you can't and won't do it.
You have to look at it this way, because of Adam's sin, we were all headed to hell. There was no hope. God sent Jesus to give us a way ,so we didn't have to go to hell. Now the choice is ours to accept this or not. If we don't then in effect we choose the hell we would have normally gotten and deserved.
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@Straw: I understand all of that. That is what you believe will happen because it is all predicated on belief in God. If one does not believe God exists, it is unrealistic to expect that person to accept scripture as valid. It is, as always, circular logic to use scripture as proof of God.

And I am not "not choosing" to believe. For one to make a choice, one must weight the pros and cons of two or more things which are seen as viable options. That is not the case with atheists. To see any god as a viable option, we would have to be convinced that god or gods exist. Then we could consider our options as to which god is the correct god, and/or which reportedly divine text is the correct one to follow. But atheist aren't there yet. We have yet to be brought over that first hurdle. Convince us that God exists, and then we can talk about choices. Or as I said, it should be quite easy for an all-powerful deity to do that.
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Free will, he made us so we can choose what we want to worship be it a tv, a horse whatever but, I choose to worship him because I want the best life I can have. And he made us to worship him but, some don't choose to, he's a jealous God but, not angry jealous like you would think

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Not angry jealous like someone who would condemn someone to eternal torture for not worshiping him?
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God already had angels who worship Him. So He did not want us to be like them!
He wanted a being created in His Image!
To communicate with Him/to be with, like he did with Adam and Eve ...
Walking in the garden in the evening!
To CHOOSE to worship Him. ( or Not).
And He knew ALL that would happen in ages to come/so He planned that solution as well!

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To say an infinitely perfect deity wanted something it didn't have is to say this deity was lacking in some way. If it was lacking in some way it cannot be infinitely perfect.
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That's like asking why you'd get a puppy - even though you knew it would poop in your Blackhawk hat and chew-up your favorite Bear Claw slippers. I believe God created us and all the creatures on Earth to share the Glory of His creation. Unfortunately, we pooped in His slippers right off the bat.

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Humorous and very true. :) Hi, Dave!
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Except in your scenario you'd be MAKING the puppy and allegedly have the power to make a puppy that won't do those things. Analogies to ordinary events fall apart when you are talking about supernatural qualities.
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Assuming that an all-knowing, infinitely powerful deity knew that its creation would be defective, but purposefully made it defective anyway. And assuming that an all-knowing, infinitely powerful deity would have power over the existence of hell and why it allowed hell to come into being. Therefore, it can also be assumed that this all-knowing, infinitely powerful deity purposefully created people who he not only knew would act in a defective manner, but also it set up the process whereby these defective people would be sent to eternal torture. What kind of sadistic deity would do such a thing?
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God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God's will is carried out.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html#ixzz2OYxZGhom

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Strawberrygirl, your wisdom is impressive. :)
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I thank you humbly.
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Strawberrygirl, I hope you don't mind if I ask for prayers for my family.
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Anything specific?
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About five years ago my brother and his wife humiliated my parents and then left the family. They now live many states away. My parents didn't deserve to be hurt. Now I haven't seen my brother in years but he and his wife are coming to visit today and are staying at my house (I live with my parents) for two weeks. Anything could happen and I'm very worried. That's what I would like prayers about.
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Yes, I will pray that the Lord will touch their hearts and forgiveness and reconciliation will come about in your family. They might need to clear the air of the hurt feelings that have occurred, to let healing take place. Maybe in coming they want to be rejoined to the family. trust that God knows what He is doing, no matter what the outcome.
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I will. Thank you very much, Strawberrygirl.
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The Scriptures state that “God is love” and that he is “a lover of justice.” He has always urged his people: “Hate what is bad, and love what is good.” (1 John 4:8; Psalm 37:28; Amos 5:15. Joshua, a leader of God’s people in ancient times, exhorted his countrymen: “Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve . . . As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.” (Joshua 24:15) Similarly, God’s prophet Jeremiah said: “Obey, please, the voice of Jehovah in what I am speaking to you, and it will go well with you, and your soul will continue to live.” (Jeremiah 38:20) Would a just and loving God encourage people to do right in the hope of receiving a reward if he knew that they were destined to fail? No. Such encouragement would be hypocritical.

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What many believers on this question are doing, and what believers have been doing since people began asking questions, is what is called reverse engineering.
They begin with the end result, then using what logic and evidence that can be manipulated they attempt to make it sound convincing. With regards to your question the terms "free will" and "satan" is used often, these are just tools used in order to transfer blame. By saying free will they can insist it is your fault in some way, that your doubt is a weakness of yours not gods. In situations where that won't work they pull out the satan card and claim it is confusing you and that it does this on purpose.
The reality of the matter is that a belief system created by humankind during an age of ignorance has many holes of logic within it, and our subconscious reminds us of this and brings it to the forefront often. If a supernatural being exists and if it wanted us to understand its message it would be able to connect with us in such a way that would leave no doubt, it wouldn't need to "test" us if it were omniscient (all knowing) We would not have to twist logic, or ignore it in some cases, in order to make sense of it.

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Well, to start, one of the things we have to understand is that God has the ability to choose to know something in advance or, not to know. He has that power. This is revealed in a statement he makes to the faithful man Abraham at Genesis 22:12. It involves God wanting to find out the extent of Abraham's faith in him. Although God had no intention on letting Abraham sacrifice his son, note the expression God uses where he says to Abraham: "now I do know that you are God fearing". This is an example of God using his choice to not know something in advance but allowing his servants to show him what they really are at heart. Really, this is a very loving thing for him to allow us to do. This is what he did in the case of Adam and Eve. At the beginning there was no need for him to suspect that they would disobey him since sin did not exist at that time. God afforded them the same opportunity to prove their love for him by being obedient that he later gave to Abraham.

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He made us to love us.

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