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whether or not you believe in creation or the big bang, how was the first tiny speck of matter created? imply divine mystery?

it seems that some thing beyond our comprehension must have existed before matter to make the matter come into existence. to me that is the divine mystery, G-D.

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You are positing an Argument from Ignorance fallacy- you don't know the answer therefore gods. Hardly logical thinking- it's how primitive man reasoned lightning must work afterall.

Energy and matter are transmutable. The Big Bang originated with a quantum event in the singularity, causing a rapid expansion and cooling of this universe; the Higgs field (and newly verified Higgs Boson) explains why things have mass, actually.

The problem is that this is very complicated physics- science is hard, and "Goddidit" is easy. But easy is rarely correct.

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Hahahahshaha
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G/D didn't seems to be an easy one for you. your partly remembered and less explained fluff of science bits and pieces gotten from partial attention to the media was off point, explained and answered nothing. if your intent was meant to belittle and insult please use a better smoke screen, maybe one you actually understand, not physics. thank you for your kind attention.v
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Kitten you still have not answered the question,
Where did the matter come from for the big bang?
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Skepti is an actual scientist, unlike you hacks.
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Quantum physics explains where matter came from.
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Like I said Jerusalem- a quantum event. The energy already existed, and energy can be transmuted into matter. The Higgs field explains why this universe has mass.


@janiepa-

Actual scientist here kiddo. Funny how all you could manage to do was say "nuh uh", not actually refute anything. Probably because you have shown yourself to be scientifically ignorant.
Adding an Argumentum as Hominem fallacy to your Argument from Ignorance fallacy just proves you have no argument.
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Well from what I know at the beggining of the universe there was a small ball of matter so dense that it exploded and formed the big bang.

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but, my question remains, what or who existed before to create that small, very explosive, ball of matter? to me that seems to be simple and elegant proof of G-D. thanks for your input.
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How is the fact that you don't understand something proof of some god?

Technically there is no "before" since time is a construct of this universe.
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No one knows how matter came into being. Something always existed. To the naturalist, the possibility of non-matter becoming matter always existed. To the theist, the non-matter is the divine. Some theists propose that matter is an extension of the divine. Others suggest the divine is separate from creation.

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yirmeyahu- love that. of course I don't know the mechanics of how it was done, but I know who did it. thanks for your response.
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@Janiepa: "Who" did it? Was it the Tawa God and Spider Woman Goddess of Hopi belief? Or was it the goddess Izanami and the god Izanagi stirring the universe into being with a jeweled spear as per the Japanese creation story. Or how about the Hindu creation story which says that there are many universes -- past, present, and future -- all created, or to be created, by Lord Brahma? Or perhaps it was one of the many gods and goddesses of one of the other thousands of religions. All adherents of these creation scenarios are just as certain of their validity as you are of yours. Science, on the other hand, makes no claim about whether or not the universe came about as a result of a supernatural world. Science only reports what is known regarding the natural world.
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There's only one true and living God
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@Aikenback: Oh. I see. I was Lord Brahma. That is the one, true living God according to Hindus.
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Unfortunately we can't see that far into the past. We can only draw conclusions from what information we have and I love science, but I myself, have never seen an answer to this question either other than there have been multiple bangs.

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thank you. I wasn't aware of the multiple bangs.
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God created everything. Science has no explanation for how the first matter was there, where it came from, or anything about it. They also have no idea where the amount of energy needed to explode that "little ball of matter" into what we know as the galaxies in the first place. God created it.

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Religion also does not explain where existance started. Faith? That's all you have to go on? Faith in Big Bang pre-dates religion. We also can prove our methods.
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right on honey! thanks for your response.
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oops! the response above was meant for" thequestioner". sorry.
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Faith can explain "ANYTHING" Loch Ness monster, bigfoot, chupracabre, or the tooth farie! WHAT??????? You don't believe???
Oh, and by the way there's this guy that kicks all their asses(we call him "Super Man".)
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Primitive man had the same thoughts about lightning- they didn't understand it so they thought it must be gods. Today we know better, and a thousand years from now mankind will be laughing over the things people in our time attributed to magic deities.
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I'll be laughing when you are accountable before God for your skeptism
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Okay then, "the question asker" answer me this one, If god created everything, who created god?
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Isn't sadism against your religion, aikenback? The fact that Christians claim to be of a religion of love but frequently display a creepy sort of glee at the thought of anyone who doesn't believe as they do being punished is more than a little hypocritical.

Skepticism is not a bad thing- it just means you require evidence before believing extraordinary claims. And something I wager you do for everything but your god.
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What created 'God'? Sorry, to me that's funny! I know that is not your question, you may be talking about 'dark matter' The bond of all existence. We are getting closer to finding out, but we aren't there yet. 'Faith' is what is used to explain what we don't know yet.

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Great answer. Hats off to you.
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as you said you know, I didn't ask anything that wanted an answer to " who created G-D". maybe you can answer what Restorer meant by" good answer" when I wasn't answered by a response to a question I didn't ask. just to head off any misunderstandings I do not equate 'dark matter' with the divine, nor am I confused about which is which in my mind, but thanks for your response just the same.
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liisaa
He is the alfa and omega, without Him there is nothing, He are constantly and He is Holy Spirit, through Word He made all things, so it is more then something we could understand, because how word is living? That means that it is not just words. So it makes Gods wisdom above all and it makes to understand that God gave wisdom to people not people had wisdom..
So God made people and showed them about Him..so for us God is the light forever, there is no such a light as God has, because He is our creator.
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liisaa
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll (revalations)
How could something like that be? How God sees the world? That we see is just how we see, above it there is other dimension (i could say this way), because God is perfect and He could stand on earth, He is always Higher that us and always will be.
We just have to be real and understand that Gods wisdom is something that is everlasting and BIG..
We see with our eyes and that seems to us something to talk and try to explain..How could you explain that God knows every of our hears?
We just see so less..thats why there questions about creation..is all ends with what we just see.
it shows again that- the wisdom is to fear God
Who wants let them love Him and learn from Him..
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You can recite old fables all you want... to us... they will never be more than old fables!!
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Explain to me why a 2 year old has to suffer through cancer to prove his love? Never knowing who 'he' is. Your 'god' must be malevolent, and I want no part of him.
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liisaa
why you ask me?
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Believing an explosion created complex life and planets is like believing an explosion in a copier room could create books, in my opinion. I've never heard of an explosion doing anything other than destroying things.
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I normally do not respond to religious questions. But 'believing' in anything is just that ...believing. Really?All other religions are WRONG???Who made yours right? By the way ,yours IS wrong
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Dan:..... So you must think(since you dont believe in a higher power)
That the BigBang caused that two- year old to have cancer?
Your answer:God did not cause cancer. A fallen world was the beginning of disease, suffering, etc.
Scripture says: it rains on the just and unjust.
And HE works all things for goodTO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.
HE IS IN CONTROL! Perhaps God has a purpose for that sickness..... To show YOU HIM! Children are a gift from the Lord! Love that child, learn about God from that child.
God loves you too!
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Amen, Shaylen!
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Your 'GOD' allows pain and sickness to children to teach us 'love'? He must be one sick bastard!
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God is the author of all things...even the tiniest speck of prehistoric matter.
God designed it and brought it into being.

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That's very true. There's so much we will never know how it started. Man has the never ending craving for history and reasons why things happened. Someone answers an unanswerable question, and we are happy. We will believe on that. Every question does not have an answer. Anyone who says they have an answer for a question that has baffled us for thousands of years, . . Is either guessing, lying, or was trained to think that answer. Not to say that new answers could be found for old questions.

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I believe all things came into being by the hand of God. Read the first chapter of the gospel of John for the Christian viewpoint. I absolutely believe this.

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Reading a 'chapter' of anything in your story book is irrelevant to the truth of nature. Life on this planet existed 25 million years before your 'God' even started his 6 days of creating earth. So many religions.... what makes yours right?????
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I am not christian, doesn' t stop me believing many of the same beliefs though. u r 100% right. thanks.
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ljrosie39, I must be tired. my response below danmaloney was meant for you.
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Thx Janie. Back to your observation, if we could comprehend God, that would be something we created not the other way around. I like the first chpt of John because it is poetic and addresses this great divine mystery. It is relevant if you read "Word" and "Light" as God in the flesh who came to live among us. Also the chpt gives the accounts of several people who met Jesus and their responses to him. I think it is a relevant story anyway.
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( 11 ) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
Quran (41:11)

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/212/
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( 30 ) Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? Quran (21:30)

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( 47 ) And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Quran (51:47)

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1560/

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beautiful, really. who dares deny G-D?
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well , disbelieving is not something new ... all messengers (pbut) were denied by there people even though they brought for them a plain evinces and miracles but ,
usually , disbelieving is out of injustice and haughtiness

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*evidences
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Heavens was smoke? Made from water? Who created smoke and water? Who is "we" you are talking about? You said the earth answered:
"We come willingly." How could earth, being an innate object,- have a voice to talk? You don't make sense at all !
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Heavens was smoke? Made from water?
Yes ... go and look it up ...

Who created smoke and water?
Allah (God)

How could earth, being an innate object,- have a voice to talk?

Allah says :
( 82 ) His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.Quran (36:82)

Indeed that, for Allah, is easy.

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we ~in the first verse ~ refers to heaven &smoke

we ~in the second & third verse ~ refers to Allah

Allah is one , but the expression "we " is used to stress His Greatness and His Majesty
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Arthur C. Clarke said magic is just science that we don't understand yet. To say God created the universe is just a lazy way of trying to explain something we don't fully understand...... yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

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because we aren't able to describe the mechanics of an event doesn't mean that what seems to be a self evident answer is wrong. if you think about it your clarke quote kind of goes both ways.
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If we could explain it ALL. We would not need God!
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Out of absolutely nothing, (nada!, zero, zilch!!) this powerful tiny ball of energy ( that could fit on the palm of your hand and wasnt there before ) all of a sudden decided to explode. In a millionth of a trillionth of a second, it became a whole universe full of matter and energy that eventually evolved into an inmense universe full of stars and planets, and which is continuously expanding (into nothing)

Out of which on a very tiny planet a series of incredibly lucky random events created the most incredible delicate balance out of which a single living cell ( that came out of nowhere) eventually evolved into the incredibly complex and miraculous being that we call humans ( and everything else on earth for that matter)!!

So!... Out of absolute nothing, an inmense incediblly balanced and ever growing universe full of stars, planets, galaxies, living beings etc, etc, etc....

Hahahaha!!!

Thats like saying that on of a print shop that wasnt there and never existed, and explosion caused all the letters ( that wasnt there before ) to fall back in such an incredible perfect way, that it became the library of congress as we now know it!!!

AMAZING!!!

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isbroso, I've wondered along that same line, and questioned whether others did as well, looks like a yes! only mine was much more basic, or primitive if you like. I thought how many times would it take for a person to toss the equivalent of our solar system ( fire ball for sun too) into the air or the micro gravity of space and have it perform the way our solar system does. I'm betting they'd be at for a while, a long while. thanks for responding, it was very eloquent.
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No, your answer shows that you don't understand science and are creating a straw man. It wasn't an explosion, it existed due to quantum mechanics, and it is not like the library of congress at all.
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So you're scientifically illiterate and don't know anything about the Big Bang is what you're saying.
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Guys! All of your sience and evolution theories years of study and research have not being able to prove the big bang how the universe came to be either, so as far as i am concern, my point of view is as valid as yours...
Although, after I saw your prifile pics, i must admit that now i am begining to believe some of you might have evolved from monkeys!!
Hahahahajaha
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Just out of curiosity... A question to Dr Becket over there.......what was there before the quantum transmutation thinghy?
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Or wait!! Please dont answer yet!!! Just wait 6 more month until our super inteligent scientific geniouses discover they were wrong and come up with a new theory..... Isnt that what' s being happening for the last several centuries??
Hahahahahahaha
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So wow put fact in front of religion see who wins......Earth is older than 6000 yrs sorry.... evolution is fact sorry. Jesus didnt put dinosaur bones all over the place to fool us......The latest most excepted theory is that two curtains or strings (string theory) collided and created the big bang give them 100 more yrs we might have a better answer:)

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mixutwo- if you can tell me who/what existed before them to create the two curtains, or for that matter, any type of substance or energy I'll be happy. I mean ANY kind of matter or energy! I'm not saying you are,but it seems a lot of people are too thick to get the question.what or who existed before anything was there to create something from. at the the root of it all there is a mystery that we cannot comprehind. I,personally, believe it is the eternal, G-D. this isn't a question of religion, who believes what is, in a sense, irrelevant my question isn't about religions, it's about physics I guess. I just want to hear an answer that's on point. thanks for responding.
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Welll my theory is so far out there but its a tough one to disprove or prove.....I have thought about this all my life it started when i was younger with a theory that the universe was so small that if we could fly to the end of it we would pop out into another universe that was bigger.....Now with the large Cern hadron collider where there smashing particals together to create in essence a big bang why couldent that be how our universe was created? that split second when those particals collide could be the life of a universe in that time. and if we think of time and space as not a constant at all (not sure i put that in the right way) maybe we created ourselves.. I know couldent be more out there than that :) ....I have no problem acsepting the theory of a higher power or God but i love to think about this stuff and know i will till the end of my days ....If your really interested watch http://youtu.be/JOk0fGYf5g4 I think my theory even hold up to Hawkings thinking would so love to talk to him for a day or two:)
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Did i hear that word THEORY?
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Yes Lilly, as in the theory of gravity.
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From dictionary.com
Theory
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

Please notice the Synonyms PRINCIPLE, LAW, DOCTRINE
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory?s=t
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I suggest you test your definition of THEORY by sticking your finger in a light socket so you can test the THEORY of electricity, or perhaps go jump off a cliff so you can test the THEORY of gravity.
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Gravity is a theory??!!
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Yes Isbroso it is, so is electricity, weather, math (2+2 is theory), relativity (your GPS uses it), there are thousands that we use everyday that are actually theories. They are called theories, yet are accepted as fact, because theory is "Law" not speculation in science.
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Since no one was present at the very beginning, all we have is what evidence exists to reason from. We may never know absolutely how matter and the universe formed, but science has so far presented much more plausible possibilities than the wide-eyed speculations of religion.

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so true. but for many people, me included, science and G-D aren't mutually exclusive. no wide eyed if it's in the bible "it must be true" for me.
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No Laws of Thermodynamics would need to be violated. The Big Bang is entirely consistent with modern theories.

Hey, if you take all the positive energy out there and all the negative energy out there, the total energy of the universe is zero. If you look at all the spin, with all the other spins, the total spin of the universe is zero.

Listen to the man deGrasse Tyson explain all here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4UpvpHNGpM

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noveltman, you missed the point of my question.but thanks, and I'll check out your man on youtube.
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Oh, come on, Noveltman, she asked how did the Big Bang get there to start with? Not that it WAS there; but how did it get there?
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How did the positive and negative energy come into being- that's her question- and no one given any satisfactory answer except by the hand of God! Which I believe is true!
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"I don't know therefore magic" isn't in any way a satisfactory answer to anything. It's why primitive man thought lightning must be the wrath of the gods.

Sadly some people would rather appeal to magic because it's easy then find out the real answer- science is hard.
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The net energy of the universe is 0. Therefore no god necessary.
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His ways are higher that our ways. If we knew all there was to know, we would not NEED God!

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having the same knowledge doesn't always mean having the same abilities.but I know what you're saying,and I agree. thanks.
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We don't need a god now and we're still far from all the answers.
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I agree with caluvox, we don't need god, only those with a lazy mind needs god, that way all their answers are "god did it" simple.
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Janiepa, I believe in the beginning, there was God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit- who created all that is. But from where they came, or how, is not given to us to know- maybe someday, we will understand all.

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lets hope so, 'cause it's making me crazy wanting an answer now. thanks.
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I say it came from something eternal, something that's always been.something cannot come from nothing . Hawkings has been wrong before, and so has other scientists.Intelligence is not infallible.

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I believe in the conservation of information, along with energy.I believe they are both eternal. The state of nothingness to me would be the absence of any information,or energy. I believe energy and information are responsible for creation. Call the combination god if you like. Even a black hole "I don't believe,"is capable of destroying the two. The black hole emits energy, and cannot consume information, because gravity would not have an effect.so the two would always exist in the universe.
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olpaint70, Right on! you nailed it! thanks for responding.
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Glad you liked my answer. Of course,my opinion is not unique, there are others who feel the same, many of them.
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Lack of proof is proof of nothing. That science may or may not know for certain what caused the Big Bang is, in and of itself, neither proof nor disproof of a supernatural cause. Those who claim to know for a certainty that their particular God is the cause of the universe puts them in an less tenable position than the scientists whose only claim is to report what the natural evidence reveals -- regardless of whether that evidence is evidence of a supernatural cause. To know for a certainty that the cause behind the creation of the universe is your particular concept of God, puts you more at odds with other theists who have their own certain knowledge of the cause of the universe than with science which, by its very nature, is based on uncertainty and available evidence rather than the absolute certainty of theology.

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caltex. very eloquent, and true observations on religion and science. it reads like you've given some time to your thoughts. thank you.
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Thanks, Janiepa. I have had a little over 60 years to think about the subject of the natural versus the supernatural, and have been an ardent devotee of both schools of thought at various times in my life.
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I also have been on both sides of this debate, lately I have been entertaining the possibility that ancient mans god, and creation, or the cause of it, have nothing in common.And that whatever eternal force that created, just doesn't have anymore to do with us, and doesn't care.mans creation of god, was a grand illusion, that answered all the questions. But in reality we're on our own, and responsible for our own destiny. Just a thought , I am and have always been,"searching for an understanding."





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God spoke every thing but man and woman into existence. With man God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul, then He took one of Adams ribs to make Eve.

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'Ex nihilo" is Latin for "from nothing." The term "creation ex nihilo" refers to God creating everything from nothing. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Prior to that moment there was nothing. God didn't make the universe from preexisting building blocks. He started from scratch.
The "first law of science" states that matter (the stuff the universe is made of) cannot be created or destroyed. Matter can be converted from solid to liquid to gas to plasma and back again; atoms can be combined into molecules and split into their component parts; but matter cannot be created from nothing or completely destroyed. And so this idea that God created everything from nothing is not natural to us. It's not natural at all--it's supernatural.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/creation-ex-nihilo.html#ixzz2PiPo3ckc

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There has to be a plan and a purpose. God did all things!!!

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